Do you ever wonder what Childfree Life really looks and feels like?

Sure, there are the party days of your 20s & 30s (which we both crushed by the way!) but what happens when things start to "slow down" at 50?

Is fun still a priority? Does the worry about the elder years increase or decrease? Does regret set in or fade into oblivion? Is building community with new childfree friends possible?

We share answers and insights to all of this PLUS, wecover topics that matter to all of us- health and wellness, relationships, investments, career, travel and lots more!


Have you ever found yourself caught in the crossfire of defensiveness or judgment from parents? Or, maybe you have felt outcasted or overlooked? Rick and I have received so many negative comments from parents that we started wondering about the root of this divide between parents and those without kids. In this episode, we share the leading causes that will shed some light on this strange ‚Äúcompetition‚ÄĚ.

I also explore my family tree and share a surprising conclusion that raises thought-provoking questions about future childfree generations. Meanwhile, Rick continues his exploration of how AI and Robotics will impact our childfree elder years and shares a fresh new reason to appreciate the childfree lifestyle.

We invite you to join in on the conversation! Have you noticed that some parents cannot accept the childfree choice?


Rick: [00:00:00] This episode is going to be a good one. 

Veronica: If you have ever found yourself caught in the crossfire of defensiveness or judgment from parents and wondered where is this coming from, this episode 

Rick: is for you. Yes, and we are going to share the leading causes that will shed some light on the divide between parents and those without kids.

Also, Also, I 

Veronica: explored my family tree and came to a surprising conclusion that has raised a thought provoking question about future child free generations. Very 

Rick: impressive family tree, by the way. It was huge. And I continue my exploration of how AI and robotics will impact our child free elder years and share a fresh new reason to appreciate the child free lifestyle.

Veronica: And let's get into it.

Rick: And here we go. Uh oh. Uh oh. Rick's in a really chatty mood today. 

Veronica: And your hair looks extra. 

Rick: Pay no attention. [00:01:00] Pay no attention to this hairstyle. It's kind of bedhead. Well, it's going with your mood. If 

Veronica: you're feeling extra, whatever, your hair is a little extra, but it 

Rick: looks good. I know, I know, I know. It's just, uh, I'm due for a haircut.

I, Been very busy as have you and, um, we can get a little bit into that, but I do want to bring up something early started. I told you it was chatty. So be prepared. I'm prepared. I thought of another thing to be grateful for. Okay. About being child free. I thought we'd open with that. Okay. It's kind of darkish, but not really.

It's just our reality. Explaining what's happening in the world to children. What is happening with those conversations? Oh my god! I know you don't watch the news as much as I do. I do not. I do not. The, um, breaking down. The craziness. And we won't get into it. That is 

Veronica: such a good thought. I actually haven't thought of that.

I'm sure at some point I have, but either in a while or [00:02:00] maybe not to this extent, but you know, having the news on and having a child say, what is, what's going on? What does that mean? You're right. I can't even, I don't even know where you would start. That's what I'm saying. What angle are you coming in?

Right? Like there's just so many topics to figure out because maybe you're sharing a specific world event, but then you have to bring in what's happening, the divisiveness, humanity, war, like it's just too much. You're right. I mean, I am very, very grateful. I mean, I can barely. Process it myself that I don't have to decipher this information and try to, you know, pass it on to someone else.

Rick: Disseminate that to, to, to our, to our, Yes, exactly. And it also is age dependent, right? There's like, you have to monitor, like, okay, this is the age I should probably filling them, fill them in on this. That might come up in school. And, Right. The [00:03:00] dynamic of that, Yes. I mean, I'm just stressed right now. Yes.

That's a 

Veronica: one, let alone doing it. That's a great one. I was just telling the women in my program the other day that we come up with gratitude moments almost daily, and I think that it sounds, um, it sound, it could potentially sound like we're exaggerating, but it's so true. Totally true. Because not only is it once a day, but sometimes we have multiple moments of day of gratitude and it's different forms of gratitude.

So I'm glad that we have this. podcast that we can share it and I love hearing about, um, our listeners moments of gratitude too, because it's really endless. It just goes on and on and on and on. 

Rick: And I know this sounds obvious, but I'm just going to say it out loud on this podcast. Everyone listening to this right now, take a moment and be grateful because this is just one of many.

Yes. Many things to be grateful for. Yeah You made this choice for a reason and whatever your reason is There's so much gratitude that comes with it [00:04:00] so 

Veronica: or if you landed here or if you landed in this choice and Are moving forward with a happy child free life, whatever the situation is. Yeah. So yeah tons of gratitude.

for bringing that up Yeah, 

Rick: so and speaking of world events and A. I. Is on the forefront of everyone's mind lately. It's not most people's. It seems to be in the news. It's on every website. It's on social media. So A. I. Is like a thing. And, you know, I just listened to a podcast and, um, it was the C. E. O. Of Open A.

I. Who owns chat, which is, yeah, which is the woman. I mean, it's named Sam Altman. And it was just really listening to Where he sees AI going and the time span and of course, selfishly that folded into the child free thought of kind of our elder years and we always talk about like AI assisting us as we get older.

Veronica: Yeah, we did a reel about that last week on Instagram. If you're not following, go ahead and give us a follow there because people were. [00:05:00] Really laughing at it. But I did that real and you you're the one who inspired me to do that real because you talk about this and how a I is going to be there for us in the future.

And I am on board with this idea. 

Rick: I'm here for it. And I think that the reason why I'm very passionate about this part, you know, and I'll continue to be passionate about it on the child free connection in our community, etcetera. But like for me, it's It's just not AI is like, Oh, it's a smarter version of Google.

It's the interaction that we're going to have. That's going to solve a lot of loneliness crisis. This is coming from the head of open AI, by the way. And it's this thing called AGI, which is artificial general intelligence, which is basically it's that you don't have to prompt AI. It almost just. Happens.

So when you walk into your house, it's welcome home, Veronica, by the way, don't forget that you planned on doing this tonight. How are you feeling? And then you can have a full blown conversation and that's just going to be in [00:06:00] kind of an Alexa situation. But he did go on to say that eventually AGI will go into a mobile unit slash robot and be able to assist you.

And here's the exciting part timeframe. 10 to 15 years, right? Yeah. In our lifetime. Yeah. This is something that's real. 

Veronica: It is very exciting. And it's something that you and I have a lot of deep conversations about. We really count on this technology and we're really serious about. You know, when we get asked the question who will take care of you when you get older, we envision a I robotics a G.

I just being part of this whole process and it's happening. 

Rick: It's happening. And you know, that's not to say that there won't be other people around you in your life. 

Veronica: Obviously, but this is an option. 

Rick: Yeah, it's a nice option. And I think we brought up a separate thing. You know me, I start to like, and you may [00:07:00] disagree with this or I don't even know the answer.

So it's not an agree or disagree situation. But I was also listening to this Elon Musk interview and we won't go down that rabbit hole, but we know he's like very anti child free, anti child free chart. You said it. Um, do future robots, Count as part of the population. I never thought about that. Now I know they're not consumers.

So everyone that's listening, I understand that, you know, he's basing this on, we are a consumption society and we need to consume in order to grow and so on and so forth, uh, as far as, you know, especially the economy. I personally think he's self motivated because he makes things and sells things. I've said this before.

So therefore, of course he wants more customers, but I will, you know, it brings up the question, like, do, will robots in some capacity count as part of the population? Cause they always talk about the population deteriorating, you know, the folks that. Of us. Yeah. Because of us. 

Veronica: Um, that's really interesting question.

I've never thought of that before. [00:08:00] And I. This is the kind of shit I 

Rick: come up with. No, I know. I'm just telling you, it's always stirring in my head. I don't know what's wrong with me. Why am I thinking about this all day? 

Veronica: Well, you think about this stuff all the time, but it it does It's it's just interesting.

I think we can go into a real rabbit hole about different reasoning why that is Can be or cannot be but I think we'll leave it To our listeners minds to explore that idea in the future. I really like to uh, Let us 

Rick: know i'm very curious what your thoughts are. Um, everyone that's listening to this. Um, yeah or watching on youtube hard pivot You Yes, I want to say i'm very excited.

You're about to launch your new program Do you want to talk a little bit about your next class your march class? Very exciting. Yeah His child free for me. Yeah, 

Veronica: so, uh, the doors are closing soon. I'm really excited about this next group. And again, the last class was just an amazing experience. Those ladies have since moved on to [00:09:00] our membership community that you and I run.

Um, and I have been still getting testimonials and little notes and letters, and I wanted to read one for you. from Melissa, where she says in the program, we not only learned a lot about one another, but through curated questions and exercises that made us really sit and think about our wants, goals, desires, and core beliefs.

We all learned so much more about ourselves. After six weeks, which is a relatively short amount of time I am no longer in a spiral my trust and confidence in my decision has exponentially strengthened And in moments of fear or doubt. I know I have so many women who can relate And support me what I love most about this program was That Veronica lived and breathed everything that she speaks about.

And she is passionate about supporting people like me. Thank you. Thank you. [00:10:00] Thank you. So that's from Melissa. Really, really sweet and really well written too. So thank you for that. Yeah. And. And basically that's what it is is child free for me It's the essential guide to exploring a choppy life and it's for women like myself who at one point We're leaning towards child free.

We're not being pulled towards motherhood, but could not quite fit in figure out what was pulling you back from making the commitment. And that's what the program is for. I'm really excited. Doors closed soon. So if anyone out there knows of a woman that is going through this struggle is childfreeforme.

com because I'll be closing the doors, uh, by the time this comes out, probably in a few days. 

Rick: I have a question about this program. I've never asked this. You know, I, I, I love to hear all the results, but I, I also, and I'm assuming this is per person and it's based, you know, on the individual when they come in with, you know, they have all these concerns, right?

Pretty much. I mean, that's what your program is, is to [00:11:00] identify these concerns, mitigate them, 

Veronica: explore them. I think we can dive into anxiety, stress. It's a lot of a lot of 

Rick: so do you get to witness that transfer? Do you always can pinpoint that point where they realize like, Oh, this is the right decision for me?

Veronica: Yeah, I it depends on some women. They have this huge aha moment. Maybe during one of our calls But, and, but sometimes others, it takes a little bit longer. Everybody's on a different timeframe, right? There is no, because there's no pressure to make any sort of decision at any point, but yeah, I do get to witness that.

And that is actually my favorite part of the program because not only, and this has been really consistent, do I see women building their confidence about. Making this choice and making an informed choice But the tools that I teach them and the resources that I give them Allows them to feel confident about other areas in their life And it also allows them to [00:12:00] explore other areas in their life using the same guidelines that i've taught them So I never really expected for people to use what I taught them in other areas of their life So that's really 

Rick: cool too before we get into today's topic.

I did want to discuss You One other thing that came up during the week. We like to bring up things that happen to us, obviously. This doesn't really fold into child free, but it is a question I had for you and I wanted to save for this podcast. So we were, we, we went out for St. Patty's day to just blow off some steam and have some fun.


Veronica: But we didn't know it was St. 

Rick: Patty's day. We didn't know. We didn't know. And, um, yeah, but we, we actually knew when we left and we're like, let's just go for it anyway. Like, we'll deal with 

Veronica: the parts. We're on our way. And our friend texted us and said, by the way, because we were thinking about a couple of different parts ago.

She was like, did you know it was St Patty's Day? We were like, Oh, no, because we weren't really thinking about getting into a crowded 

Rick: situation. Yeah. So we selected a bar that is, we knew it was going to be crazy. It's a big bar that has a theme [00:13:00] for every single thing you can possibly imagine. So we went into this bar and it was packed.

You're like, you dropped me off in front so you can park the car. You were driving and you're like, Hey, go find us a table. See if it's even worth it. See how crazy it is. So the minute I walk up, there's people spilling out from the bar, you know, tables outside are packed, walking, barely can get through.

And I'm, call you and I'm like, It's not looking good. I'm all my way out the door. And as I'm walking past the bar, I see these two ladies look at me and kind of point to the table that they're sitting at and be like, do you, do you want the table? Maybe they overheard me kind of being like, I don't see any seating or whatever.

And then they get up and they kind of look back at me and I'm on the phone with you and I'm just so excited to find a seat cause we can hang out and join this energy. And then I just kind of give them like a very subtle, like. You know, oh, not even a thanks. Just kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I'll sit here and I kind of grab it.

And then I was just stricken with [00:14:00] this like guilt afterwards that I didn't thank them enough for the seat. So it brings up the question. I literally wanted to go out and be like, by the way, I understand this was like a full blown, amazing. Well, 

Veronica: it was probably the best table in the house too. That's why we were in the perfect spot.

Rick: Yeah. And I, I ended up dwelling on this in my head that I didn't give them a proper thank you. So it really comes down to this, like in a crazy situation, whether it's a parking spot and it's a busy parking lot or a table like that. Right. Am I at fault? Cause I've been feeling a little certain way about this.

I know this is so small, but this is the kind of thing that I worry about. So what are your thoughts on this? 

Veronica: Uh, uh, that's a tough one. I think, so what are you asking? Like, should have you express more gratitude for them being like, Hey, we're getting up, right? 

Rick: Should I, what am I overthinking it? Number one, which I do.

And, and [00:15:00] number two is do you think they walked away and be like, I gave that guy a gift and we barely got a thank you. So it's just two questions. I guess one one folds into the other essentially. But, um, 

Veronica: God, this is tough because it really depends. I think that it's nice when you give someone a table to get a thank you.

But you acknowledge them like what you told me when I got there because you were telling me the story that you were like, you know, like kind of while you were on the phone with me, almost thinking them nodding. I mean, you. I don't know what else you're supposed to say, right? Like, I don't know what else, like, thank you, I appreciate it so much, like, you just made my day, now I can sit.

I don't think that you really need to do that. Did they think about it? I don't know, it depends. Um, I think that this is more about you. 

Rick: Oh, clearly, it's always about me. And, 

Veronica: uh, when you offer up a table, you definitely, when you offer up anything, [00:16:00] you definitely want people to I expect a lot of recognition.

You expect a lot of 

Rick: recognition. In that situation, if it was like a half empty bar, I would like whatever, you know, there's plenty of seats. And then as we were walking out, I turned back and I saw some people because we were right next to the bar, prime location. And I saw some people in line and they turned and saw us leaving and they're like, Oh, do you all want to take this seat?

And I was walking away like waiting for them to look back at me and be like, thanks again. So then I felt less guilty about my original issue. Circling back to community, our amazing community, um, I also am very excited. I read my first fiction book. Yes. I don't, I think since college, like I, I've just been in the self help world.

Let's be specific. No, I know. I, I, yeah, I was going to get in there, but I just, yeah, I read this, this book that we've selected for our community book club. And, um, I was just, I'm like on this new thing. I want to find another book that's fiction. Well, we're picking one out this week. Great. Great. [00:17:00] Because, um, you know, I've been in like a lot of nonfiction and learning and learning mode.

As have you. And it's just, you know, I'm just so excited because it's such an escape. It was 

Veronica: really fun. It was both of our first book clubs. We have never been in a book club before. And there's so many readers in our membership community that we decided to host one. And we actually have a book club. Club captain.

Her name is Hannah. She's one of our members and she held the open discussion and it was really, really fun. And I, all I do is read about business, um, and self help, right? That's probably the blend of books, mostly business. I would say 90 percent business, maybe 10 percent self help. And it was really fun for me just to read a book and a story.

It was so nice. I'm looking forward to the next one. And it was the first time that we do something like this together. You and I, because it's usually also anything we do together, it's been very business focused. [00:18:00] So this was a lot of fun. And the book is called the passengers and we highly recommend it.

It was really interesting. Nothing I would have ever picked out myself, but if you're a reader and you're curious, look it up. We all had a great discussion about it and we really loved it. So on the last podcast, we talked about me visiting my mom and I wanted to bring up something else that happened on a trip that I didn't get to talk about.

So, what happened was that she kept bringing up, and she's done it before, she keeps bringing up relatives that I have, and I don't know my relatives because they're in Argentina. I left when I was 15. For turning five so I don't really have a relationship with them and she's always naming all these people So when I was talking to her, I was like I really should write these people down so that I can have a better idea of who's who how they're connected Because I just get very confused and then The next day we hung out with my sister and then more people came up and I was like, you know what?

I need to start writing this down because this is just [00:19:00] getting too much. So You What I did was I just grabbed a piece of paper from my sister's house and I started writing down what my mom was saying and she was pretty much remembering, uh, I started working on a family tree sort of org chart type thing, and she was telling me who was in the family, cousins, kids, and we ended up going through most of it.

It's a lot of people and there was some blanks, so we ended up calling my cousin in Argentina who we never. She speaks to him sometimes. I've spoken to him maybe once or twice in my whole life. And I'm asking him to fill in the blank on all these people. So, I actually have it with me because I was So if you're watching this on YouTube, I, um, ended up with 

Rick: Oh my god.

So it's 

Veronica: two sides. 

Rick: I didn't even know you were doing this. Yeah, yeah, 

Veronica: yeah, yeah. So, it's, it just, I have to re, I have to re Oh my 

Rick: god! That is a huge family tree. 

Veronica: I have to re do it, and this is only my [00:20:00] mother's side. I have to re do it because I kept just doing asterisks and arrows, and so I need to work on it some more.

But, the point is that everybody on this sheet of paper has kids. I am the only one on this side of the family that is child free. And that was just really surprising. I think, I don't know that I'm not surprised, but I think that just having it all laid out just made me feel like, oh, that's just interesting, right?

Yeah. Um, so I was wondering if you know anything about your family, Dre. 

Rick: So I'm not aware of anyone that's that's child free. So I would imagine that I'm close, but wow. I mean, back to you. I mean, that's incredible. I mean, I don't think my family's nearly as big as yours. And the fact that you, you know, really broke tradition on no unknowingly is just pretty crazy.

I mean, that's, 

Veronica: I just thought it was interesting and I thought that it would [00:21:00] be interesting for our listeners to also just take a quick look, um, at their family tree if they have access to it. I, I have, I have to talk to my dad. Cause I don't know anything about that side either. I have to get information.

So it's just interesting to see over time what has happened and what would be even more interesting to see is how family trees change as this generation of these next few generations move forward with the child free choice becoming slowly, but surely more accepted and more prevalent. 

Rick: You know what, you, you gave me credit earlier in this podcast about bringing up like a really interesting thought and I got to give you one.

I mean, I didn't even think about that. Like, does that tree change? And my guess is, is yeah, I would, cause you know, obviously things were a lot much more traditional as we go back in time. Um, hence the word tradition, you know, so I would assume that. That most people would find that they are breaking the [00:22:00] mold of not having kids in that family tree.

Yeah, I would say that if it's a great case study really to look at what a family tree will look like in the next 20 years, not ours necessarily, but just in general. Well, there's 

Veronica: one thing that keeps coming up. Uh, with us, and we actually posted about it on social media last week, and we post a lot on our social media channels.

Uh, if you, if you're not following us, we post a lot of the negative comments that we get because we get thousands and thousands and thousands of them. When we started, when we started the choppy connection, it was They were a little bit harder to deal with because they're so harsh and it was very it felt very personal because people were saying very specific things about each one of us about About us both as couple as a couple and over time it just really rolls off our back But we still get a lot of hostility and a lot of negativity [00:23:00] specifically from parents so We started talking about last week why The competition i'm using that in quotes if you can't see me on youtube that it's almost Like whenever we say anything there is a It feels and I understand because this happens all the time It feels like an attack towards parents like if a child free person says I love my child free life because I get to do I have the freedom to travel I have the freedom to do The immediate comment that we always get from parents is like well I have kids and I get to travel too.

I have kids and I have time to myself. I have kids and as if we're saying Your life isn't as good as ours, which is absolutely not what we're saying. We're just saying we happen to love the life that we chose. So I found this article and this woman's name is Allie Hall [00:24:00] and she is also interested in this potential view of hustle.

Stillity between a child free people and parents. And I wanted to share the article with you because I mean, you've shared with me before too, that there are certain remarks that people make towards child free people that are not very nice or feel uncomfortable or not really coming from the most positive 

Rick: place.

Comments we're getting are coming from a very defensive place. Like they feel like they need to defend their side and we're, we're, we're spreading some kind of message of anti children, which is not the case at all. You know, at all the case, this is because this is a different life trajectory. It can be confusing 'cause it's not mainstream, it's not taught, it's not.

Part of the tradition, as we mentioned earlier. So there's confusion about it. And we're trying to explain like, Hey, this is a safe space of support and understanding of this lifestyle and what it looks like for those who want to be child [00:25:00] free, leaning towards being child free, but are confused what it looks like.

That's what your program is about. So it frustrates me. I'm getting worked up. Look at me. It frustrates me because. People don't get that. It's always like, well, why do you got to post about something that you don't have? Or no one cares that you don't have kids. Why do you got a round ounce of that? And it's like, no, people do care because they're confused that are in the space that we're in.

So I just, I say that loudly and with passion because that's the purpose and the core message of what we're doing specifically. I can't speak for everyone. Yeah. And that's what frustrates me. And that's where the tension between parents and child free people start. It's a misunderstanding, as most things in life are, is a communication issue, a disconnect.

And therefore, people go into their corners and they put their boxing gloves on and they're ready to come out and fight. And it's stupid. It's like, look, we're just, don't worry, don't, don't worry about what we're doing. We're not worried about what you're doing. I mean, I mean, we can have fun with it. We can say the [00:26:00] positive and the negatives of both sides, right?

I mean, we'd like to kind of point out like what we're grateful for, but we're not taking a jab at parents. It's a reality 

Veronica: that we don't, that's not talking about the negatives of their side, that if we're, we're right. Yeah, we're just saying we're happy. We don't have to deal with x. We're happy. We don't have to sure why But we're not putting anybody else down for choosing to do 

Rick: those things Yeah, and I think there's a lot of parents that take offense to that for some reason but they're to be fair There are some parents that kind of laugh and say you're right.

You don't have to deal with that. We've 

Veronica: gotten those Support. Yeah. No, i'm just talking about the people that come To us and come at us and also we have members of our community that very specifically give us You Stories about how some of their family members or some of their friends really come at them about this choice Like why would you do that?

Why you're being selfish and all the things that fall under the category So this woman Ellie Hall was wanting to dive into this hospital [00:27:00] microaggressions, this coldness that we feel from parents. And she found a study by Dr. Jennifer Neal and Dr. Zachary Neal. And the study is titled prevalence, age of decision and interpersonal warmth, judgments of child free adults.

And what they found was that the warmth parents display to Other parents is greater than the warmth that they give to child free people. Meanwhile, child free people demonstrated the same warmth to parents and child free people alike. All 

Rick: right. So I'm a little slow. Let me just process that. So you're saying basically that parent to parent.

Yes, they have a there's a lot of warmth and understanding because they bond. That makes sense. And for child free person to parent, there's the same warmth [00:28:00] to a certain degree, right? However, okay. And so that's where you're at right now. I just want to make 

Veronica: sure I'm clear. No. So what I said was that parents.

Do not display the same warmth to child free 

Rick: people. Okay. And this is a study, right? This 

Veronica: is, yes, this is what they, this is what they found. This is what they concluded. 

Rick: This is not opinion. This is a, this is a real case study. So, yeah. Okay. 

Veronica: So I, I just thought that was interesting because it's pretty obvious.

I think that as child free people, like why these. Words, these microaggressions, this hostility exists. So Ellie Hall, who wrote this article, she offers two possible reasons for this lack of warmth. And the first thing that she talks about is that parents are bonded by trauma. And she refers to book that is called The Body Keeps Score.

And she shares a quote from the book, which I thought was really interesting because in this book they discuss war veterans. [00:29:00] And it says, after trauma, the world becomes sharply divided between those who know and those who don't. people who have not shared the traumatic experience cannot be trusted because they can't understand it.

So she took that book and thought about this idea and said, well, pregnancy is traumatic. Childbirth is traumatic. Raising a young child can be traumatic. And she goes on to say that many psychotherapists. List childbirth and parenting alongside other areas like anxiety, addiction, abuse, depression, relationship issues.

And she also points out that because women are the ones actually giving birth and oftentimes doing the caretaking, that the woman to woman lack of warmth and conflict is often higher than the man. 

Rick: Wow. So that's [00:30:00] really interesting. So, so I didn't realize there was a lot of trauma that came with. Giving birth and like the process of Oh, yeah, I'm sorry.

I just lose to me. 

Veronica: So, yeah, I mean, obviously we can't speak for everyone, right? Everyone has a different experience. But according to this, there is a lot of traumatic experiences. With childbirth, with pregnancy, with, uh, raising a young child. So she goes on to say, she gives that example. And it's funny because Karen, who's in our community, just brought this up to me the other day.

And what she was saying was, it's so frustrating when I'm talking to my mom friends and I see See something very obvious that has to do with their kids in some way. Maybe they're complaining about the kid, maybe they're having trouble communicating with their kid, and she wants to say something, but she said that it's been so many years now that she just keeps her mouth shut, because the answer is always, You're not a mom, so you wouldn't know.

Have you ever [00:31:00] gotten that as a man? Has anyone ever said to you, you wouldn't know cause you're not a 

Rick: dad? No, but I've heard it being said where like you wouldn't, maybe, maybe a couple times, but nothing, not a lot. So, but I, I have heard that. Being like you wouldn't understand you're not a mom or you're not you wouldn't understand you're not a dad I mean, I get it to a certain degree, but it's also like you're not included, you know This is 

Veronica: exactly what we're saying And this is exactly what this article is saying like because of comments like that of you wouldn't understand that these words sound accusatory and they start to build division and then they increase the tension and the divide between parents and the child's phrase.

So that's one example that she's thinking of is like, there's, there's a trauma, there's a traumatic event that is shared between them. And then the person that is not in that circle of having that experience is almost. Or not is almost it starts to be viewed as the opposition 

Rick: Let me ask you this. [00:32:00] Do you think that there is maybe not to the same extent as women who physically give birth?

but do you think there's Some kind of I won't call it trauma, but some kind of bond that fathers have being there including men 

Veronica: as well Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, this includes men as well She was just saying specifically women's relationship because a woman is physically Basically giving the birth, but they're not excluding men here because men are, you know, they're pregnant together.

They're in the room, they're raising the child ideally, right. And in certain situations. So no, this is, this has something to do with just women. Uh, this is couples, uh, men and women. Behaving a certain way towards non parents, parents, non parents. And the second point that she made, um, she called standard in group mentality.

And she talks about in group out group theory, which is when we feel threatened by perceived outsiders, we instinctively turn [00:33:00] toward our in group with those people that we identify as a survival mechanism. And that makes sense, right? I mean, there's. So much divisiveness in the world right now so that when we feel threatened by outsiders, we want to be with the people that that are like us and make the same choices as we do feel more comfortable with, feel more comfortable and this makes sense to me because I mean it's the same thing why people in our community are so ecstatic and why we all, Are so happy to be in the space together because we're all like minded, right?

So it does make sense. And it starts to add up why this is happening. 

Rick: Yeah. I mean, now it's really clicking for me because I remember I said that every time, you know, I meet someone new in the community, if someone comes in or we had an event a while back, like it just happens so naturally, I think that's the same feeling parents have when they meet each other, there's so much to talk about in [00:34:00] their world.


Veronica: they're like in a common, they're in a common traumatic bubble, almost. Like it's almost like we were in the trenches together. So you get it, I get it. And there's this commonality and this bond that we cannot penetrate as child free people. 

Rick: Yeah. And it's the same with us, right? We're in this kind of common bond.

Veronica: Because no, we are in this common bond, but what they're seeing from the study is that it doesn't happen the other way. Right. Like we don't have that sense of protection of, of, um, and maybe hostility towards anyone outside of our circle, because that's exactly what the study said, that healthy people were fine with parents, but parents weren't with top freeze.

So I thought that was really interesting. I thought that was a really interesting idea because you see it happening. She mentions in the, in the article that, and this has happened to me. Multiple times and she's mentioned in the article how she was in a [00:35:00] yoga class and then, you know Maybe after class all the women were hanging around and talking everyone's talking about their kids and somebody it was her turn and somebody said How many kids do you have?

Which is really interesting because that's happened to me a lot instead of saying do you have kids people just say how many kids you? Have and then once Once she says, no, I don't have any children or once anyone in our community says, no, I'm child free or whatever, there is a sense of. There is an energy shift and she says that you can almost feel people just sort of peeling away and almost.

Sometimes even walking away or just sort of looking at her and okay, and then keeping the conversation going because so she feels it, right? And I have felt that. I don't know if you've ever been in that situation. I have felt 

Rick: that. I have felt that where it's like I'm with a group specifically it was on a golf trip and a group of guys and they all had kids big more [00:36:00] than two or two at minimum and they're kind of discussing and I'm kind of quiet because they're discussing something about being a parent.

Yeah. And, you know, I, whether it was taking the kids to soccer practice, whatever, they were getting into it and I was quiet for a pretty good long time is a long conversation about it and they were all kind of bonding back and forth and then it was obvious that I was being quiet and they turned to me and they're like, Well, what about you?

Do you experience that? And I'm just like, Oh, I don't have kids. And for guys, it's a little different. Instead of an energy shift, I got, uh, lucky you, you know what I mean? I think that's just a guy thing. Like, I mean, it's so 

Veronica: different. It's, it is 

Rick: so different. This was this one group. I'm not saying, 

Veronica: no, I know, but you're generally.

It's generally very different than what we 

Rick: experienced. I think even one was like, ah, good decision. Jesus. Because you know, it's kind of like, and you know, it's kind of endearing, but I also feel a little left out deep down, you know, I'm just like, [00:37:00] wow, okay, that is fine. That's nice that they kind of offered up this like good choice, you know, type of thing.

You know their whole the hardships of being a father and all the responsibility that comes with it, you know So it's like that's the energy I get but but I am there kind of feeling uncomfortable for sure. 

Veronica: Yeah Yeah, I mean, I definitely understand that's when the line starts to be formed and the division starts And then she so she also points out in the article that maybe child food people are seen as a threat or someone to fear And that's just, it's just a really interesting perspective to have.

And the reason that we're sharing this is not to increase the divide, but rather to understand that there is actually a component there that is happening and whether it's. It's just human nature or biology or whatever it is. There is something happening among parents that is forming some sort [00:38:00] of divide.

And once again, ultimately, obviously there has, there is no need for hostility. There is no need for division. We are so close with our friends who have parents and we obviously have some, so much support from parents. But it's just really interesting to me to start to think about like why this hostility even exists in the first place.

Well, if this 

Rick: podcast makes it to any parents ears out there, I just want to say. Embrace the child free. We can help you. We can be supportive if we like kids. Some people don't like kids. That's okay. But like we like kids, like we're here to like, you know, Hey, we can hang out with the kids. And I, I personally like it.

I mean, I was, I mean, you're 

Veronica: volunteering yourself on that 

Rick: one. Well, I, because I do, I mean, I like kids. I just don't want to have them obviously. And, and you know, when my friend Steve is always talking about his, you know, his daughter's soccer game, I went to LA recently and I wanted to hang out. It didn't work out, got busy and whatnot.

It was unfortunate. I couldn't get to hang out with him, but I wanted to. Like go and like experience that. But it's nice to walk away from it too and not have to [00:39:00] deal with the rest of the responsibilities. Right. So, but my point is, it's like, you know, I, it's interesting. There is this divide, um, because there's no need for it.

You know, I don't think there's a, I don't know if there's a solution if this article talks about mitigating that issue and like how to like resolve it. But, well, I think that's what 

Veronica: we're, We're having these general conversations all the time, right? Just to I think that once we have awareness that something is actually happening there, then we can just start to also on our side, maybe because I see a lot of people having a lot of conflict with friends or with family members.

And there's a lot of anger and tension. Maybe just start to think about Well, there's a reason that this is happening, and that's all. That's all. We can't solve it overnight. But it's just interesting to dive in and to think about why is it even happening in the first place. 

Rick: Yeah, I mean, it's silly, you know, it's because there shouldn't be the divide.

I [00:40:00] mean, it's, it's clear that we just have Made different choices like anything in life. And, but I mean, that's the culture we live in too. I get so frustrated. I mean, look at politics, look at social norms and all that kind of stuff. It's like everything is divided. Right. So it's, 

Veronica: it's very natural. Another divisive measure for society to like, just pick a side.


Rick: Well, it also goes deeper, you know, it's very much, you know, A tribe mentality vibe, you know, it's like very much like I'm with my tribe, my tribe is relatable in this sense, because in this case, we all have kids and, you know, other people don't have kids have their tribe and how they engage with each other is the is the issue, right?

It's because I think everyone's kind of got their guards up. I mean it sounds like in this particular case study, not all, but the parents are more guarded due to this traumatic bonding than perhaps child free people are. Some child free people may be more 

Veronica: open. Yeah, absolutely. And ultimately, hopefully, we can all just move [00:41:00] forward and get along better and better as time goes on.

And we won't get these hateful comments on it. Oh, please 

Rick: believe the hateful comments are going to still come. I think we just need, it's how we manage the hateful comments, just not letting them get to us and you know, killing them with kindness perhaps. 

Veronica: Yeah, that is what we try to do. We do try to kill them with kindness and we'll keep on doing that and see what happens.


Rick: yep, I completely agree. And, um, I want to close by saying another incredibly insightful podcast. I mean, we're just bringing up stuff that just. Comes up, you know, it's just, we're, 

Veronica: we're talking to cover. We have a lot to say. So we're excited to see you next week. And there was a special day next week. I don't know if anybody remembers, but something birthday 

Rick: girl.


Veronica: Big birthday. I'm turning 48 inching my way towards 50, but so far so good. I haven't had any kind of. Age related things going on. Yeah, [00:42:00] I'm 

Rick: very excited for your birthday. We'll talk about it on the next podcast. It's going to be a good time. 48 is a big deal. And, uh, yeah, we always have a good day on my birthday.

We always, we always do. And you're getting close. You're getting close to that big five zero mark. Yes, I'm ready for it. I know you are. All right. Great chat. Yes. Talk soon. Bye. Bye.