Do you ever wonder what Childfree Life really looks and feels like?

Sure, there are the party days of your 20s & 30s (which we both crushed by the way!) but what happens when things start to "slow down" at 50?

Is fun still a priority? Does the worry about the elder years increase or decrease? Does regret set in or fade into oblivion? Is building community with new childfree friends possible?

We share answers and insights to all of this PLUS, wecover topics that matter to all of us- health and wellness, relationships, investments, career, travel and lots more!


As a childfree person, have you ever heard someone say that having a kid makes you a better person? (We've heard that a lot!) In today’s episode of The Childfree Connection Podcast, Rick shares a clip where the guest said exactly that -so, we’re going to dive into what a “better” person means and how is having children related to this supposed transformation? 

Also, Rick wants to know if celebrity pregnancy announcements are really necessary after he sees one as a top headline on his favorite site. Plus, we both share why our gratitude for being childfree was higher than usual these past two weeks (way high!). And lastly, Rick questions if it's weird to go to Disney without kids?


Veronica: [00:00:00] Have you ever heard someone say that having a kid makes you a better person? I actually have heard that a lot. I'm sure in today's episode, Rick shares a podcast clip where the guest said exactly that. So we're going to dive into what this better person means.

Rick: Also, I want to know if celebrity pregnancy announcements are really.


Veronica: We'll say. Plus, we share why our gratitude for being child free was higher than usual these past two weeks and Rick questions if it's weird to go to Disney without kids.

Rick: Let's get into it.

Here we go. Good morning.

Veronica: Good morning. How

Rick: are you doing? I'm doing great. Um, all things considered and we'll get into that in a minute, but I will say, um, that this is the earliest we've ever shot a podcast and you know, the reason why we're shooting it so early this morning is because yesterday we planned on shooting it around two o'clock in the [00:01:00] afternoon.

We set up the mics. We're all ready to go. Right. We start shooting. And what happened? Construction. On

Veronica: construction. Right above our heads. And

Rick: by the way, in a brand new building, that's like not even a year old. It's so annoying.

Veronica: Yeah, they do construction all the time. So the second we hit record it, I mean, it could have been more perfect.

Like the second we had record the drilling and the banging started, um, it was pretty funny. Positive.

Rick: I'm staying really positive this year. And what did I say? I said, you know what? This is a good thing. Yeah, we started. It's frustrating, but we could have been halfway through and the, the vein could have stopped started and then, you know, but I'm excited about today.

Tell us what we're talking

Veronica: about. Well, we're talking about quite a few things today. I think that we need to cover, but one of them being is the idea that, and actually you brought this up cause you listened to a podcast clip and you, um, you shared it with me about. The messaging,

Rick: I'm not, I'm going to share it today.

It's a juicy clip. So I'm going

Veronica: [00:02:00] to share it later on. Yes. The messaging today that having kids makes you a better person. And we've heard this on all different capacities. I feel like a lot of times when it comes to men, right? Like, Oh, if once he has the baby, he's going to stop partying or being crazy or whatever it is.

So anyway, we're going to get into that later. Um,

Rick: Into the podcast. Yeah. In this, this is so, this is just a little inside. We always say, we're gonna be honest and transparent on this podcast, tell you everything. So I'm listening to this podcast in the shower, Uhhuh, and I come out of the shower like, you have to hear this uhhuh.

And it annoyed me so much. I know. And we're gonna play that clip. On the podcast today. I mean, yeah, on our part, we're gonna play a podcast clip on this podcast. Um, exactly that very thing. But, um, yeah, we're

Veronica: gonna dive into that. I think that we should update our friends here on our health. We have both been super sick.

And for me personally, and I know that you probably feel similarly, but [00:03:00] I've had a slew of health issues since we've been together specifically in the past. three or four years or so. Recently, I got, I don't know, flu, cold, COVID, who knows? Um, and then you had it and now we're both still in recovery from it.

Rick: Um, isn't it interesting? Did you find it interesting that we didn't even test for COVID? We just said we probably have COVID. Do you think most people don't even test anymore? Like I was like, all right, we have COVID. I

Veronica: don't know. I don't know. I mean, I wasn't too concerned about it because Yeah. Yeah. We weren't gonna do anything differently and there was no way that I was gonna be out and about so I wasn't concerned about Getting anyone else sick because we were confined to the apartment because our energy levels were so low while we were sick that we weren't Leaving anyway But yeah, I don't know.

Maybe people do still I think if there was one laying around the apartment I probably would have used it, but I just really felt like there's nothing different that we're gonna do so You [00:04:00] know, neither one of us has to go out there and buy a

Rick: test. My fear is I don't want to know because I'm a hypochondriac, as we've talked about on this podcast.

Very much so. And if I know it's COVID, now I'm like, I've got the pulse thing on my finger to make sure my breathing is going. You're doing all the things. I've got everything hooked up to me to make sure

Veronica: I don't die. I'm surprised that we don't have an x ray machine and an MRI and a CAT scan in our home.

Maybe one day we can afford one. I think that would be your dream.

Rick: Situation and a 24 seven doctor that lives with us. Yeah,

Veronica: exactly. I think what these times do for me Not that I think I know is that the gratitude levels just begin to skyrocket because I really do think about How would I? Do the things that we need to do for a child in the times that I feel So so sick and especially when we both get so sick at the same time And I'm talking about the [00:05:00] lifespan of a human I think that a lot of times in this conversation it defaults to when there's a baby or a toddler or You know someone under the age of five, but there was just so much responsibility especially, uh, you know, in the teenage years, a young adult life.

I mean, we have friends that are those ages and the responsibility is really great, especially when there's so many activities or so many sports or so many practice or so many after school things you're picking up, you're dropping off. There's so much going on with their lives and having the ability It's really great.

To completely shut down and be in a quiet space for days just purely trying to take care of your health is really a gift and not have to be concerned about any of these other things. What do you think?

Rick: Well said. I mean, I didn't even really think about that until you just said it. I mean, yeah, I [00:06:00] did think about during that period where we were both laid up pretty severely that, oh, my gosh, like, what if, you know, we were both sick?

So what are we? Would we? If we had a child, how would we be maintaining responsibility? Yeah. And so, um, no, completely with you. Grateful on Every aspect of what you said. I mean, you know, I was thinking that to a certain degree as well, like I mentioned, and just being able to just recover, take your time to recover.

Um, and also, you know, I'm not burden your Children with you being sick. There's something there to be said as well. You know, it's like having them have to take care of you.

Veronica: Yeah, absolutely. And especially, obviously, when we get into old age. Yeah, that's what

Rick: I was referring to. It actually kind of brought me forward to that.

It brought me forward to this feeling of, like, what would that, you know, be like for a child to have to take care of someone who's sick and that [00:07:00] Resonated with me during this period as well. But yeah, yeah, being sick sucks. Yeah,

Veronica: it really does suck. Super grateful. And, uh, yeah, I think that we both managed it pretty well.

Perhaps you had a little bit of a difficult time once it initially hit you. Uh, as far as

Rick: For those who can't see she's smirking because she calls me a big baby about when I'm sick And I admit i'm somewhat of a big baby, but I pulled myself together pretty

Veronica: quickly You did and that's why I want to bring it up.

You did pull yourself together And also I want to give myself credit because a lot of times i'm like, oh meanwhile I'm in the same boat as you I mean i'm a little bit a few days in so i'm starting to recover perhaps and um And then you start and usually like, again, I'm working on codependency and all these things.

And usually I'll be like, even though I'm still sick, I'll be babying you and making sure. And I was like, look, suck it up. It sucks. I've been feeling [00:08:00] this way for days. We're going to be

Rick: fine. You know, what I learned was the secret. Yeah. Is that if you don't be a big baby about it and you just kind of do this internal suffering, the other person is going to see you kind of like really struggling and in turn, they're actually going to pamper you a little more because they feel bad.

But if you're like, whammy, I'm sick, then it's kind of like annoying and you're like, you know what, I'm going to go to the cafe and work, you deal with your being sick. Yeah, because I felt like the quieter I got, maybe I threw a loud sniffle in there every once in a while just so you heard it, but like the quieter I got about it, the more you paid attention to me and I was like, Oh, well, reverse.


Veronica: Exactly. I mean, obviously we're still going to care for each other, but I tend to go into this like intense 24 seven nursing mode without taking care of myself and I'm really working on not doing that. But yes, kudos to us. I think we both handled it really well. And once again, it was. just like another check mark in our child free [00:09:00] life.

And just to say like how grateful we are. And I did bring it up to one of my friends and I said to him, you know, I just like, I can't imagine managing, you know, teenagers, um, helping with homework or anything that they have to do what, when I'm feeling this way. And he just immediately had stories to share of times where.

Either he was super sick, his wife was super sick, they both had stomach flus or whatever the case may be and how difficult that was. So

Rick: he did share stories about that because that's the,

Veronica: I mean, he didn't get into details. He was just saying that it was a complete nightmare. It's just a complete nightmare to navigate

Rick: behind that curtain because we talk about all the time we see all the front facing glory of parenthood and all that stuff, but you don't see.

Which I would say it's like an iceberg, right? The majority of it, it's bigger under the surface as far as a lot of work and concern and so on and so forth. So, I just would love to [00:10:00] get behind that curtain every once in a while and just see that. I don't think you do. Not for self enjoyment of like, Oh, I made the right choice.

I know I made the right choice for me, but just to really understand it better. Does that make sense?

Veronica: Yeah. I mean, I feel like I've gotten a pretty close, I mean, one of my, um, best friends has four kids and they gotten the stomach flu, the whole family, so many different times or some kind of stomach issue and then it passes along.

And then when the parents have it and the kids were younger, it was just a complete disaster. So, I mean, I've gotten a. a pretty good idea of what that feels like. But anyway,

Rick: just sick is just one of the things. I'm sure there's like a list of, you know, yeah, long term. And by the way, while while I was under and feeling under the weather, I was, you know, kind of doom scrolling and looking at all the, you know, news and stuff like that.

And I have to I got to bring up something. Yeah. And maybe that's an obvious answer, but I need your help on this. [00:11:00] You know, the big announcement recently was that Sophia Ritchie, Lionel Ritchie's daughter, most people know her, is pregnant with her second baby. And I'm just like, and I saw it and I was like, you know, I'm so used to seeing celebrities are pregnant and making headline news.

I get it to a degree. I understand that, you know, there's celebrities and maybe I'm going to interpret it this way. Why it's a big deal is because they're a public figure and people are interested in what the offspring is going to look like because they know, because they're a public figure. Is that why it's a big deal?

Because I don't get it. I'm just like, Sophia Richie, pregnant again. I'm like, so, why is it, why is it on the front page of Daily Mail?

Veronica: Right, I know. I mean, that has to do with our Prenatalist Society, right? Like, we celebrate. It's the same thing like celebrating pregnancy in your own personal circle. That's not.[00:12:00]

Famous and not exposed to the public, right? When someone is is pregnant within your circle, whether it's your family or your friends It's a huge deal. It's a huge celebration and everyone talks about it Everyone has to know especially when you're within a family circle That's really what the conversation surrounds for the 10 months of the pregnancy so When it's in this limelight and it's a celebrity, it just amplifies the, the idea of the news of how great the news is.

I mean, I agree with you. I don't know, especially when it's your second kid, like that's front page news. And a lot of celebrities really ride those opportunities and start. Making profile pages for their onboard kits so that they can start so the second that they come out. They're already promoting clothes and toys and So this is

Rick: a new revenue.

This is a new revenue stream for them

Veronica: Yeah, exactly. So it can be that as well, [00:13:00] especially when you're working with agents and publicists and managers and just a whole team of people behind this. But there is other purposes besides the fact like, Oh, look, this is something that is really beautiful. It's a really private moment.

We want to share with you this, all these hidden agendas behind it. So, but the problem is that when people see it, sorry, the problem is when people see it, all they see is like, oh, this is this beautiful thing and everybody, I should be doing it too because it looks like everyone's doing it and everyone's so happy about it.


Rick: And I don't even blame every celebrity. I mean, some celebrities probably want that to be front page news, but a lot of it is just the media. I'd like to, to your point, but here's even the worst part. It's like the baby's first look when they get that first picture of the baby. That's

Veronica: like millions of dollars.


Rick: million people make millions of dollars again. I don't care. It looks like a baby. And so it's, I get it. It's the baby of a famous person. I just think [00:14:00] that's not going to change, but I certainly am going to put like a Google filter on like no more celebrity because I just don't care. It really takes up my time.

I'm just like, and then it's like multiple, it's like multiple pictures and it becomes a big

Veronica: thing. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's been around for a while. I remember when we were younger, it was, uh, Demi Moore was on the cover of I think it was Vanity Fair, and with her big belly, she was, with the giant belly, I think she was one of the first, um, celebrities to do that.

So, yeah, and then there's been Beyonce, and a slew of celebrities to do it afterwards. But, but yeah, I agree with you, it does come across as huge, huge news, and uh, yeah, it could uh, it could be really rather interesting. But, news, I don't know if you saw this morning, but in our private membership community, we had Two of our members, um, Hannah, who lives in Canada and Rand, um, Rand, who lives in Vegas, got together.

So yes, Hannah flew from Canada to Vegas [00:15:00] on vacation, and they got together and spend the day and they shared a picture in our membership community. And it was just so exciting. This is probably like the third or fourth time that we've seen We've seen this where members of our community who live in very different places, either drive to each other or are on vacation and make sure to meet up.

So really exciting. I was excited to see that photo. I was excited. They connected. And the cool part about it is that they already know each other so well because of our live meetups and everything that we do inside the community. So I don't know if you saw it yet, but yeah, really excited that they got to meet each other.

Rick: Shout out to Hannah and Rand. And. And you know, from our community and I got to say, yeah, I love that this is happening organically. We're not orchestrating like, Hey, you both live in this area. You should meet up at a coffee shop. Like this is everyone in our community is just connecting on such a deep level and they really want to meet each other.

Um, we're working on a big trip for all of us [00:16:00] this year, which is going to be super exciting. And I just, yeah, the organic nature that it's taking on is just so much fun. So I encourage you, if you're feeling alone, if you're looking to connect with other like minded child free people, it is a safe space.

Please go to our website, uh, childfreeconnection. com and check it out. I mean, the more it grows, the happier I posted on that picture. I go, everything about this warms my heart. Yeah, because I was just like, I mean, they just look so happy to meet each

Veronica: other in person. Super exciting to see them connect in that way.

Um, so yeah, definitely go check it out. Like Rick said, it's only 9. 97 a month and completely worth every penny in our opinion and our members opinion as well.

Rick: 9. 97 a month. It's like a cup of coffee from Starbucks because that's how much

Veronica: coffee costs by the way. Oh God, don't get me into the coffee prices lately because it's completely out of control.

Um, Okay, so I do want to say I just want to go back to the sick thing for a second because we took NyQuil one night and I [00:17:00] haven't taken NyQuil in years. It's just one of those, um, I guess I really haven't had this kind of flu cough thing in a long time, so I haven't taken it. And we both decided to take it one night together and I felt roofied I was just so out of it I ended up waking up in the middle of the night because eddie woke me up I think he was scared and he was scratching at the bed And he wanted to come up to the bed for a little while and then he woke me up again He wanted to go back to his bed.

So I was just in like this cloudy Hazy, I felt like I was roofied state and it is just crazy that This stuff is available over the counter. And you did tell me that you had to put in, you had to scan your license. I gotta put in my driver's license. Yeah, and I think you have to do that in the stores as well.

I don't know if that's a state thing. I know that we have to do it. You have to do it here in Texas, but I can't remember if you have to do it in New York. I hope [00:18:00] it's nationwide because that stuff is crazy.

Rick: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I agree. I was, I'm so happy because I was going to take melatonin and the NyQuil, but I was like, you know what?

That sounds a little too much. Yeah. And when, and I was laying there and you had already passed out and I was like, good. Cause you needed it. Cause you were really congested still and it wasn't good. And, um, and I was like, mine's not kicking in and I was like, maybe I didn't take enough and I'm like, all right, let me just give it a second.

And right. As I said, let me give it a second. I woke up and it was in the morning and I was like, at nine in the morning, by the way, I slept like it was crazy,

Veronica: crazy, not taking it again just because it made me feel so off and it reminded me of and I'm so I'm not embarrassed, but I'm just looking back at myself like what The hell, Veronica.

So, and I've told you the story before but I'll share it here just because it's so crazy. [00:19:00] Um, so when I was younger, I was a club kid, New York City, and went out all the time and one night we were going out with all our friends and someone, I can't remember who, had the idea that we should just take a bunch of cough medicine.

And I have an issue with cough medicine. I even struggled the other night because the taste is really, really hard for me to take. Like I'm a baby with it. I'm just like, no, no, I'm shaking my head. I just can't stand it. It's gross to me. So everybody was buying a bottle of, I don't know if it was rubitussin, maybe not NyQuil, because we probably wanted to stay up and party and not fall asleep.

So what I did was buy a box of the same thing, the cough medicine, but in pill form, and I ate the whole box.

Rick: Oh my god, I didn't even know this story.

Veronica: Are you serious? Yeah, do not try this at home, by the way. Really unsafe and really ridiculous thing to do. Um, I'm talking, you know, 25 plus years ago. And it [00:20:00] was, I just became so sick that night.

I won't even get into the details. We were out, we were at the club, and finally, stuff hit me. And then I was just fast forwarding to the other night when I just took one dose, the one that you're supposed to take. And I just couldn't even take it again because it just affected me on such a grand level that I was like, so I, it just like reminded me of the choices that we make when we're younger and how we just don't even think of the consequences.

Rick: Probably. We're like, you know, Flashback state while you were sleeping just like the

Veronica on top of a speaker. Like, I always picture you on top of a speaker in a leather dress in the 90s. I mean, kind of. You're not wrong. Just crushing, crushing the DJ scene. You're not wrong.

Veronica: You're not wrong

Rick: at all. Um, yeah. No. I mean, listen, in all seriousness, stay away from that stuff if you, unless you have, it's like, right?

To me, I'm now viewing that as break glass in case of emergency. [00:21:00] So

Veronica: exactly. It's so we have to be some mindful of the things that we take. So I do want to get into the clip that you shared with me and maybe we should share the clip. Before we start talking about

Rick: it. Well, let me set the clip up. So this was Joe Rogan and, uh, Janice Pappas.

And they were talking a lot about like, you know, how vulnerable we are in this world and how the moon's been hitting, been hit a thousand times with meteors and how we could be hit at any point at nuclear war and destruction of the entire world. And then they segwayed into this, which I found interesting.

Once you have kids, you root for

Veronica: them. You're like, let's do it. Let's keep going. Yeah, I can understand people don't have kids like what's who cares let it blow up and when you have kids you're like No survive. Let's all survive. Yeah the card I get that. I don't want to have kids. I don't want the responsibility I get it.

But what I don't get is that You know, we don't the world doesn't need more people. Do you like people because I like people [00:22:00] Love people. Um, my favorite friends are people. Yeah, that's what we're doing here is making people. Yeah. Yeah, that's what we're supposed to do. Yeah. I love people. The idea that we shouldn't make more people seems f ing insane.

It's crazy, especially when you do it and then you feel the love that you have for your kids and you're like, this is the greatest thing. And then you just become a better person. Yeah. You just become, everything about it is positive. Everything about having kids is

Rick: positive. For most people, okay, so I want to 1st start off by saying that what irked me right off the bat and we'll get into this, this clip a little bit, but we're working right off the bat is the whole thought process that if you don't have kids, and maybe he was speaking for herself before he had kids, like, who cares about, you know, if we get hit by an asteroid and the world explodes.

Who cares? Yeah, let's be here for the show. But if you do have kids, it's worth fighting for. Like, let's create nuclear missiles to intercept asteroids and get them out of the way. It's just like, I mean, to just generalize like [00:23:00] that and basically say that everyone that doesn't have kids has this. Quote, unquote mentality.

Yeah. It's like it's insulting. It's so it's insulting, but I'd love to hear your thoughts overall. Well, it

Veronica: doesn't add up. It's just incorrect. And I think also there's a differentiation between when people don't want to have kids and they don't want to create people. It's not. So much. I mean, it depends, right?

But for the most part, it's not that we don't want any other people around, we just want people who want to create people to create 'em, not people who have a lack of desire. So that's number one. Right? Right. Um, and number two is there are surveys done and research has been done when asking people their reasoning for being child free and.

A reason, a key factor that comes up a lot is the environment and the future of climate change. And they want to be as they want their carbon footprint to be as little [00:24:00] as possible.

Rick: But at a certain point, like the whole, like this world needs more people. Do we? I don't know. Again, I'm not an expert in this.

Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?

Veronica: Well, I think that the concern becomes very extreme. So people feel like. If there's a, if the child free movement continues, we're going to become extinct, which is ridiculous because it's a lack of desire to have children unless of course you're a child free or a childless by circumstance or for any other reason, but When a person is sheltered by choice, they are making a decision that is based on obviously their own personal belief system.

People who want kids will continue to want them. People who want to be parents will continue to be parents. They're not going to be convinced if they're innately Pulled towards motherhood or fatherhood. They're not [00:25:00] going to be convinced by child free people that they shouldn't have any It just doesn't work that way It's just you either really want them or you don't as far again when it comes to having the choice So yes child birth rates are going to fluctuate.

It has a lot to do with society. It has a lot to do with Socioeconomic issues, it has a lot to do with what's going on, especially like during the pandemic, what we saw in the 1950s with the baby boom, like there's just so many outside factors that go into play when it comes to birth rates. Yeah, they're declining right now.

But for so many other reasons, besides the fact that some people are opting into not having kids because they're actually being presented with the choice.

Rick: I think that And this is my guess that some people see the child free movement as they're looking at is like we're influencing people and I know that's what you were saying, but we're influencing people to not have kids.

And that was a very clear way of saying that that is [00:26:00] not the case. But the fact that. But if we're putting out there this alternative, this different lifestyle, alternative life, this different life path, this different life choice and the good parts that go along with it, we're perpetuating this narrative that it's better than raising children and that's not what it is.

No. And I feel like that does happen all the time. We're just simply saying to your point and, and thank you for really Laying that out very clearly is that this is a life choice for those people that feel they need to have kids because they don't know what else to do. They just, you know, they may not want kids, but they're like, well, what else am I going to do with my life?

So I got to have kids and then they end up miserable. Unlike what Yanis Papas was saying was like, Oh, well, if you have kids, no matter what, you're a better person now. In all defense, like Joe Rogan has been pro child free and he's, he has made comments where he's always been very much like, look, you know, why do you care what people do?

And he understands [00:27:00] like, you know, it's a personal choice. And he kind of, he said that a little bit later in the clip too. So I'll give him credit for that, but ultimately it's just interesting to me that, you know, having children equals better person. Well, that's that's a whole to that person.

Veronica: Yeah, it's such a personal experience.

Rick: Yeah, but he's sending out that message. So now he's doing he's doing exactly is being hypocritical. He's doing exactly what he thinks child free people are doing. You know what I mean? In a sense that because he's saying that this is the way you're going to be. Be a better person is to have children, right?

And that's very parallel with if you're child free and you don't have children you're gonna be happier. It's the same thing It's just two different sides of the spectrum. Yeah,

Veronica: and what's confusing about his statement is that Parents feel very much they're so in love with their children. So they are going to share this idea of this is the [00:28:00] best thing that's ever happened to me.

This is, this has made me a better person. This has made me more caring. This has made me and to some extent it can be true. But there are so many outside factors that can play into this. So one thing I First want to say is that when you originally told me about this, I wanted to just look up the idea of parents being better people because he's not the first person to say that.

And I think that there is messaging around society that we see that this is a. better option, a better experience. You're going to be more patient. You're going to be more empathetic. You're just going to be an overall better person. So I found this article by Ellen Walker and Ellen Walker is the author of Complete Without Kids, um, which is a good book.

Definitely check it out if you haven't read it. And she lays out four, is it four or five? Yeah, four ways in which Child free people again are [00:29:00] seen as like the less better person or the less better choice And she points out some ways that this is just not true And this is why the first the first thing that she points out and that this is not a fact is Because if it was a fact that parents become better people or are better people because of children Then we wouldn't have a thousands of children experiencing abuse and neglect Right?

That's number one. And I read and I googled some of this and I read, um, the most recent report I could find was from 2021 and it shows that an estimated 606, 031 children passed through the U. S. foster care system over the course Of one year, so over half a million kids are in the foster care system here in the U.

S. Alone. I don't know globally, but I can only imagine that the numbers are high as well. And then in 2021, I found another research that said that in [00:30:00] child abuse cases, 77 percent of the Children were victimized by the parent. So that's when we have to stop and take a look at it. Okay, this was your personal experience and you became a better person because of X, Y, Z.

But making a blanket statement as a whole just doesn't hold up to the information, to the research, and to the statistics, right? The second thing she said is that it is It's absolutely natural for all of us to step into a certain level of maturity. And what this means is that a lot of times, and I have heard this a lot with men, I think I mentioned it at the beginning, that someone gets pregnant and then there's Little rumblings of, well, he'll slow down now.

He won't be as, he won't be going out with his friends anymore. He won't go out and party. Yeah, he's not going to want to party anymore. The baby's going to help him be more responsible. Correct. A better person and all of that comes [00:31:00] into play. Now she points out in her article that. Sure, this may happen, but it doesn't take away from the fact that young adults, you know, once you start getting into your late 20s, early 30s, it is, there is a natural, um, gravitation towards slowing down, right?

You're not necessarily Partying 24 7. You're more focused on your career. You're taking adult responsibilities on, so this naturally happens with or without kids, but because the focus is, well, they had a baby and now he or she is not doing what they were doing before, so that becomes a focus. So I thought that was a good point as well.

The third thing she says that she points out, and this is. so true, and we see it all the time in our community, is that child free adults have more time than any other group to give back to their community. And you and I are really big on [00:32:00] this. We do it with our community once a quarter. We do a volunteer project.

We're looking for one to do now. Last quarter, we all wrote, um, letters to the elderly and elder homes and with our community, with our membership community. So we see this happening all the time. Actually. One of our members just posted yesterday that her husband is in Manila working with children. I don't know if you saw it.

Delilah posted it. And and doing this beautiful volunteer work, and this is his third or fifth time going and he makes sure that once a year he does this kind of trip to help Children out. So we see evidence of this all the time. I mean, you and I have done tons of volunteer work, our friends at our free.

So that's just another point of, you know, we're not, you know, that we're not as good as people, as people with children, right? That doesn't make sense considering that the evidence shows otherwise, as far as, um, as far [00:33:00] as giving back to the community. Um, and then the last thing that she said is, again, our lower impact on the environment, which I touched on earlier when you first asked me.

Because so many reasons, right? We don't necessarily need these giant cars to transport the kids around. We're not using school buses. We're not chasing the kids around to turn off lights. Maybe we're more cautious about what we eat. Well, we're eating less processed foods because we're not making these quick lunches necessarily or snacks.

So there's just. So much that is being taken into consideration. So the idea that a child makes you a better person, I think to me it looks like it's just completely coming from a personal point of view. What do you think?

Rick: I think you bring the credibility to the entire child free connection when it comes to, cause like I'm so emotional.

I'm just like, did you hear what they said? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're just like, Calm down. Let me [00:34:00] research this and we can come up with a real case on why that's not accurate and true.

Veronica: Well, it just gets me so frustrated when people say No, I know what you mean I make these blanket statements and I really just like to break them down and be like incorrect Because of these you're very

Rick: pragmatic and thank God for that It wouldn't work without you.

I'd just be ranting and raving. Um, no, all of those. I mean, what can I say? I was impressive. You know, those were all excellent points and absolutely, absolutely right. And I know this is just one person's statement and what he said. Um, but unfortunately, I do think that it does resonate with a lot of people and messaging is out there that having a child Makes you a better person, brings you happiness, does all these glorious things.

Um, again, I just want to state Joe Rogan did say sometimes it does make people what you were saying, and they're not good people. They [00:35:00] actually, they actually spiral. And they, and so there was a counter argument is the clip developed. Um, because that, that is, that is true. And you know. Identifying yourself as which one are you, you know, and and I was able to recently, you know, the past five years identify like I definitely would have been the one that spiraled if I had kids.

I'm not saying I would. I'm not saying I would have been abusive or anything like that. God forbid, you know, I wouldn't. But, um, I definitely wouldn't have been the best version of myself. I wouldn't have been a better person. I would have been more stressed out. I would have, I would have probably been a lot more neurotic than I already am.

Right. I would have, I would have, we wouldn't want to know. Yeah. We wouldn't want to know what that life path would have looked like. But yeah, no, I mean, I think those are all great points and, um, yeah.

Veronica: And I hope God. But no, you got no, I was just gonna say that. I also think that these narratives, um, also give way for like, to say that, you know, you become a better person when you have kids.[00:36:00]

It's also just to me, puts more weight on the idea of having kids as a person. It becomes like a gamble, right? Like you're betting on it. Like, okay, let's, you know, if you have a partner, let's say that you're trying to calm down, you're trying to make them more responsible, and, or you're trying to do all these things, it's, it's, to me, it seems like a gamble to bring a human being into the world to see if If that happens or if that works, right?

Especially we've seen it. How many times? I mean, how many people that we know of have, um, parents, uh, who have suffered with addition their whole lives. And at some point, somebody may have thought, you know, once they have a baby, they won't be an addict anymore, which is not the case. So we have all these examples, life examples of how this mindset doesn't really add up at the end of the

Rick: day.

Yeah, I mean, for some people, it's their Hail Mary, right? It's like my life is so bad [00:37:00] right now that if I have a kid, that maybe this will be the gamble I'll take that's going to turn things around. Yeah. And in fact, it usually doesn't. I think that if you're going to have a kid, just like if you are pursuing a career and you want to be happy in that career, you got to be passionate about what you're doing.

Yeah. You want to be willing to work outside of your career to really yeah. Research it more and understand it more. Those are the people that are really uber successful are the people that just love what they do. You hear that all the time. Yeah. I feel that the same thing applies to being a parent. Like you have to really want it because it is one of the hardest challenges you're going to take on.

Veronica: And we love, like when we see examples of good parenting, it just brings us so much joy, um, to see a parent be emotionally available, be physically available, be financially. available for their kid. And it's just, I mean, it's just a difference, right? It's night and day when that happens as to when it doesn't.

So [00:38:00] yeah, absolutely. One other thing I wanted to bring up because I did get into, I, I do like to talk about biology sometimes because, because our brain structure and how, um, how our brain can sometimes affect us into thinking one way or feeling another way. I did find a study that was really interesting and I'm just going to read what the results of the study

Rick: was.

I feel like we should, people should pay to listen to this. This is, I'm learning a

Veronica: lot. So it says that, so the study was on expectant fathers and this sort of ties in with that idea that we were saying of what expectant fathers can feel, right? Are they going to turn into this? better person? Are they not?

Are they going to continue their ways? Are they not? And the result was that it says, although expectant fathers spontaneously undergo hormonal and neural changes in the months leading up to and following childbirth, those who are provided [00:39:00] with and take advantage of opportunities to spend more time caring for their infants undergo further biological alterations.

These more pronounced biological changes can support fathers in becoming more compassionate caregivers and developing closer emotional relationships with their children. So once again, it's saying, because I remember that it had to do with the plasticity in the brain, and then there's also increased cortisol and increased oxytocin levels, and you know, babies are always releasing oxytocin, which affects women as well.

So all these biological changes can be happening. But if they are participating in a fatherly way, if they are present for their baby, if they are present for their mom to be, if they are doing [00:40:00] the right thing as far as that's a concern, but if you're not doing that, then these chemical changes that can perhaps occur don't matter because they're not going to really change anything in the relationship that you have with your wife or your child or your girlfriend or whoever.

So there is some, you know, if you hear the argument that there's these hormonal changes, plasticity, Sure, it can happen. But in the research, it says as long as they are doing, they're spending time and they're being present and all of that. So that's just something else that I thought was interesting.

Rick: Yeah. And it gets back to that. What you're, you know what I'm saying earlier, which is you have to have a real Passion and draw towards doing this because it is such a

Veronica: wonderful when that happens. Right. And I think that

Rick: that's amazing. I support it. Listen, there's no one that claps louder than us. When someone has a, who's been wanting to have a child.

We have tons of friends. Our friend, Melissa just had a baby and she's wanted that her and Keith are amazing people. And we [00:41:00] were so, so happy for them. Bottom line is no one should be making blanket statements and putting people in a box. I think that's really what it boils down to. Exactly. Yeah, before we go, by the way, again, I'm gonna really just tip my cap to you with all that valuable information.

I feel like I have a takeaway that you've opened my eyes. I've calmed down now. You're listening to the clip and you've inspired me to take a More analytical approach, if that's even

Veronica: possible, very easy. And actually, that happens a lot with the women in my program, too. When they're coming in, there's so much resentment.

There's so much anger. There's angst. There's because of all this messaging that you keep hearing what people keep driving into your head. And it gets really and I understand it gets to the point that you just are so sick and tired of hearing it. Yeah. Yeah. So I completely understand it, which is why The whole point of my program is child [00:42:00] free for me is to really take a look at all the things that are going on, all the things that are being said, all the things that we've been taught and breaking them down and understanding them rather than have like an emotional reaction to it.

It's really helpful.

Rick: Yeah. I mean, I would have taken, I would take your course if I, if we were together, because I mean, for me, to your point, I'm not even joking, like the triggers. I mean, that triggered me and the trigger was. Having children makes you a better person, and I know for a fact that that's not the case with me.

So generalize that and say that and put that out there on a podcast that gets hundreds of millions of views and listens. It's just like, yeah, we're gonna go, but I do want to bring up one thing. Real quick. And that is Disney. So I have said to you several times. I have never been to Disneyland. Right.

Right. And there's a design. My brother's a part of the Disney club and he goes all the time and he's invited us. They love it.

Veronica: They love Disney. I feel [00:43:00] like you're

Rick: always there. So I want to get your take on, real quick, going to Disney as a child free person. Will we have a good time if we go together? I know we've, we've talked about it some here and there, but like, will we have a good time with no kids at Disney?

Because I want to go to Disney. And I think I'm fulfilling some sort of fantasy, like, childhood thing I missed out on. Right. But I'm, like, also an adult, and if I get to Disney and I'm 52 walking around Disney, am I gonna look creepy with not having children there? Like, I don't understand Disney. So I don't want to go if it's gonna look weird, or if I'm gonna feel uncomfortable, or if I'm genuinely not gonna have a good time.

What's your thoughts on child free people going to Disneyland? Well,

Veronica: yeah. I mean, I know we've talked about this in the past. We haven't talked about it in a while. I have been to Disney and I went to Disney. Twice, uh, with my ex husband, and we just went by ourselves, obviously, because we didn't have kids.

[00:44:00] Um, and we had a nice time. It was enjoyable. Now, there's people Can you rent

Rick: kids for the day? Does Disney provide that? They provide everything else. I'm sure they're like Well, honestly, it's I'm joking

Veronica: again. I'm joking. Yeah, I know. I think that, I'm gonna say knowing you as well as I do, Disney requires a lot of patience.

And there's a lot of overstimulation with Children, right? Like there's just Children everywhere. Obviously, it's a world. Um, and you're waiting on these very long lines with Children around everywhere. So I think that you just need to be putting yourself in a situation where You know, does that seem like an environment that I want to put myself in?

Now, the reason I bring that up is because yeah, there's some really interesting rides that you might find interesting or, or displays or experiences depending on which park you go to, but [00:45:00] ultimately, there is a process of waiting a lot of lines, a lot of kids everywhere, even if you want to get Drink or food.

It's just very, very crowded and you don't like crowds. You don't like noise. You don't like to have a million kids around. So I don't know that this would be the best option for you. Although there is plenty of adults that we know that love going like your brother and his wife. They love going there even with or without the kids.

Now. Lastly, we haven't really been traveling as much as we normally do, and we're about to definitely start traveling more. This is not on top of my list

Rick: there. It's not on the top of mine either, but this is more falls under the bucket list. But I also don't want to wait till I'm 60 and be walking around Disney.

Veronica: Yeah, I mean, I don't think it matters to be honest [00:46:00] with you. But yeah, I mean, I think if you're just, if you're ruminating about it, it's on your mind and it's something that you still want to do. Yeah, let's do it at some point. But it's like, you know, 40th on my list. Because there's so many things that, so many places I want to see and so many things

Rick: I want to do.

How about this? We'll, we'll incorporate work. We'll, we'll go to Disney and then we'll, we'll make a podcast about our experience. Child free, child free people at Disneyland. And then we can have a lot of stuff. Well, I think my concern

Veronica: is that I may be at Disney with a child if we go together.

Rick: Oh my God.

All right. We're going to handle that note. Look out for our Disney podcast down the line. Maybe we'll do it. All right. Uh, it was great. Talk to you. Thank you for all of your insight as always. And, uh, we'll talk to, we'll talk soon. Bye.

Veronica: Bye.