Do you ever wonder what Childfree Life really looks and feels like?

Sure, there are the party days of your 20s & 30s (which we both crushed by the way!) but what happens when things start to "slow down" at 50?

Is fun still a priority? Does the worry about the elder years increase or decrease? Does regret set in or fade into oblivion? Is building community with new childfree friends possible?

We share answers and insights to all of this PLUS, wecover topics that matter to all of us- health and wellness, relationships, investments, career, travel and lots more!


Fear of future regret can be a common emotion in the childfree community. Unless you were 100% certain that you didn’t want kids from day one, your mind can automatically flow into the murky waters of the “what ifs”. 

In this episode, Rick and I dive into the difference between feeling regret about the past and the fear of future regret once a person decides to be childfree. I discuss my experience in speaking to the members of my program “Is Childfree For Me?” and how deeply this fear can affect their mindset.

What causes regret? What can you do about it? What is the one important thing that will help you avoid the fear of regret?

We answer these questions and share examples of other parts of our lives where the fear of regret can set in. We hope that this conversation sparks some introspection for you or motivates you to support a childfree friend who may be stuck in this fear loop.


Rick: [00:00:00] And Here we go. I'm in a good mood today. Oh yeah? 

Veronica: Yeah. 

Rick: Why is that? I don't know. I feel like I got some good sleep last night. I don't want to go into all the things that have been going on, but I just feel like I got some good sleep. And most importantly, it's really, really nice in Austin today. It's arguably my favorite time of the year in the sense that it's 75 degrees, sunny, and it's November.

Veronica: know. It is so gorgeous. We were actually contemplating going to the pool after this. Contemplating? What are 

Rick: you talking about? There's no contemplation happening here. We're going. And getting 

Veronica: some like last sun in, even though we have these beautiful days every now and then, which is nice. It's not like when we were living in New York that by this time we were freezing and miserable.

Um, so it is better for sure. We definitely appreciate it. So yeah, we'll probably get some 

Rick: sun later. But I have to say, we just have to preface how we have to prep Eddie when we do our podcast, because he hates doing podcasts. He [00:01:00] hates our podcast. So I just put him in our bed with spa music on with the door closed.

So you can just, it stresses him out for some reason. It's weird. Yeah, 

Veronica: we, we sort of figured out that it's the frequency of the microphone because he also does not like when. Either one of us are on zoom when I'm talking to the ladies of my program, anything that has to do with us, um, doing our job to a screen.

He can't stand. So, but we figured out, we figured it out how, how to best help him during those times. 

Rick: Eddie hates productivity. He just wants to be cuddled and all that 

Veronica: other stuff. And also, um, you have started, you just got back from doing your acupuncture and this was your second 

Rick: treatment. Um, yeah, I'm not, I've never done it really before.

Yeah. I think this is the first time I've done it. And yeah, it's, I'm treating some things that are going on. We won't go into detail with it, but, um, [00:02:00] yeah, I, I feel A little better. And I've, you know, determined that I've got some inflammation issues. So I'm working on that. That means diet change. That means all kinds of changes.

Yeah, most of us 

Veronica: do. Yeah, absolutely. But I'm glad that you're liking your treatments. Uh, I like I'm liking 

Rick: that. I'm going to the chiropractor. I'm doing all these alternative things that I'm not I'm usually a doctor, going to the doctor. Right. Right. I go with traditional 

Veronica: medicine. Right. I tend to go the other way.

You go the other way. Yeah. And you're turning me onto it. Yeah, exactly. But this is the middle of course. Uh, we have a primary care physician and of course I go get my scans and have my yearly and all of that. But I like to combine. Both. 

Rick: Why not, right? Yeah, exactly. A little mixture of both. Yeah. Um, so I'm getting more and more into it and I have to say I thoroughly enjoy it.

I don't know. It's just. Yeah. You know, the chiropractor thing. I guess that's not technically So, Alternative medicine. Right. But I don't get that done often. But now I'm like wearing all kinds of vitamins. But anyway, [00:03:00] that's a different conversation. Yeah. And I'm wearing a shirt that I think is very fitting for our, uh, conversation today.

see it, but I'll read it. It's, hold on, let me overthink this. I think this is an ongoing issue ever since you've met me. You are the opposite of this. I live in the moment. 

Veronica: I do. I don't think I it's not natural for me. It's just I've worked on it, but it's not my go to natural. Uh, but yeah, you, you, you love overthinking.

Not that you love it. I shouldn't say that. You're just It's that's how you operate and you're trying to 

Rick: yeah, I mean overthinking and it's like if I'm not overthinking it or I'm not thinking about the future or worrying about the future. Yeah. I feel like I'm not doing my job as a human, which is a whole other bag of issues that we work 

Veronica: on.

It also sort of relates to our topic today. We're going to talk about regret, the fear of regret 

Rick: specifically, 

Veronica: yeah, the fear of regret and a lot of it has to do with where you live. Are you living in the moment? Are you living in the past? Are you living in the future? [00:04:00] And um, all the fears around those three different spaces.

I know you're reading, um, um, Eckhart Tolle's book right now. So has that been helping you? 

Rick: Yeah, it does. It really does help me in many ways. Uh, the power of now, the power of now. It's. It really talks about just living in the moment, exactly what the title says. Um, and yeah, I'm learning a lot. It's really about releasing these feelings and just really focusing on what's happening in your body right now and just owning that part as opposed to anything else that's happening from the past, the future and around you, even in the present in ways, kind of releasing what's happening around you, you know, and just really.

Really truly being as introspective as possible, which is, as you know, in this world today is very hard to do 

Veronica: for some people for some people. Not so much. Um, but it's I think it's more of the idea of getting into a practice of it because if anyone's feeling intimidated by the idea of living in the now rolling their eyes at it, [00:05:00] right, which you probably would have done.

I did do to me when we first met. Um, It's it's, you know, it's very, uh, there's not a level of interest. Maybe it's not attainable. Maybe it's a thinking of I'll never be that person. But once you perhaps, if someone decides to just crack the door open, then. You just go into this like flood of oh, that's interesting.

I didn't know that. And then you go to the next thing. Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that. And then you start to apply these practices and see how much better your life gets. And then you're like, okay, maybe the stuff isn't so Nutty as I thought. Yeah. Yeah, 

Rick: and it's a two part thing too because yeah, you're educating yourself But also you're feeling better while you're doing it, right?

So it's very right in a lot of ways. Yeah, exactly 

Veronica: exactly, right 

Rick: So this t shirt is an ode to my past. Hold on. Let me overthink this And speaking of our topic today the fear of [00:06:00] regret we watched your Video on that on YouTube that we did a while ago. If you haven't seen it, check it out. But it was the second YouTube video done you ever did.

Yeah. And that I produced. And it's so funny. It's just so different. And it's very different from what we're doing now. And Yeah, I'm very proud of you. You've come a long way. Oh, it's, it's just interesting to look back on for sure. Yeah, 

Veronica: I think that whenever we start anything, if you start a new job, if you start a new project, you're not really sure how to step into it fully, um, confident and comfortable.

And I feel that now, um, I'm just so comfortable talking and sharing and you are too, because you wanted, when we started doing this, you were like. I'm not talking, I'm not speaking, I'm not on camera, I'm not doing anything. And you made that very clear. And here we are talking on 

Rick: camera. Yeah, here we are.

It's part of 

Veronica: our [00:07:00] universe. Yeah, exactly. And by the way, yeah, if you're listening, we're also on YouTube as well, if you ever want to watch 

Rick: it. Yeah. Um, so when we, getting back to fear of regret, you know, we started having a little bit of a discussion before and we're going to, we've decided to save most of it for this.

Yeah, he cut me 

Veronica: off. I started to say, well, what about, and I started talking and he's like, save it. Do not say 

Rick: anything. And we've done a little research around this. At least I have. You've done much more. And what I've realized is that, you know, uh, regret is a very complicated Yeah, it's there's a lot of facets to 

Veronica: this.

Yeah, there definitely is. And just to start off clear with the definition of regret, and I actually wrote it down because I wanted to make sure I was saying the right thing. So regret is a negative cognitive or emotional state that involves blaming ourselves for a bad outcome, feeling a sense of loss or sorrow at what might have been, or wishing we can undo a previous choice.

So, yeah, lots [00:08:00] to, so unpack there. Yeah. 

Rick: Yeah. And we're going to get into really specifics around the fear of regret. But to the point that you made, we did a little research. Um, I did a little research. You've done a lot of research on this guy, Daniel Pink had also. Like wrote a book about regret and the four different types of regret.

And for those who are interested, you know, what he had outlined was number one was foundation regrets, which are regrets that represent failures to be responsible, conscientious, or prudent. And that leave you thinking if I only had done the work, you know, that. Oh, right. That's more like financial health related kind of regret.


Veronica: Crushed it in college and then I would have gotten a better job and then that would have, yeah. 

Rick: And then there's boldness regret, which is over time humans are more likely to regret an inaction, which are, uh, chances they didn't take perhaps. Right. 

Veronica: Um, that happens all the time with, I should have moved into the apartment instead of [00:09:00] buying the house or, or something 

Rick: like that.

Yep. Yep. And then moral regrets, and this category represents those times when you had a choice and took the low road, meaning you're not proud of some of the actions that you've taken. Yeah, 

Veronica: perhaps you were abusive to someone in a relationship or something like that. 

Rick: Connection regrets, which is number four, which is these regrets happen when you neglect the people who matter to you, who help establish your sense of wholeness.

So that would be, you know, Oh, I should have been there for this person or that type of thing. Right. Um, so again, it really, I was talking to you about this and it really doesn't fall into what we're going to speak about, but I did find it interesting. And regret as a whole now is becoming like my new going down that rabbit holes.

Cause it's just, we've all, You know, suffered from regret, I think, I think that's fair to say. And what was interesting about what he was saying was that, um, it's not a bad thing necessarily because you can regret [00:10:00] things and learn from it and grow and You know, I think it's been weaponized this word regret and, and made us make negative emotion that comes out of feeling regretful and it doesn't necessarily have to be like that.

However, we're going to talk about today is a little different. So why don't you explain specifically what that is. 

Veronica: So when I was hearing you talk about this, I, you know, I completely understood, but it's coming from a present sense of feeling regret right now. Right. So it's a sense of. Looking back at your life and already feeling regret for those things that you mentioned, whether perhaps you were abusive to someone in a relationship, perhaps you decided to, instead of taking a great paying job, you decided to just take a year off and explore the world and you regret that, like anything you can look.

back on and maybe you stopped talking to your brother for no real reason and 10 years have gone by or whatever the situation is. So those are regrets that someone is experiencing [00:11:00] now and can look back, see what happens and then Feel start feeling some regret around it. So what we're talking about and what's very prevalent in The child free community whether it's by an outside source of someone telling you this or someone actually feeling this is the idea of Fear of future regret, right?

So it's already you are becoming paralyzed by this fear that you may regret this in the future. So that's the difference. This is fear, fear of future regret. And what you're talking about, the kind of regret is looking back and regretting something that happened. And we actually have the specifics in the facts and details.


Rick: So, and, and, you know, I did my due diligence. I'll, you know, explain that further to me and I credit chat GPT now on this specific thing. Um, but I put in what you were talking about and it [00:12:00] said the fear of future regret is a common psychological phenomenon where individuals feel apprehensive about making decisions in the present out of concern that those choices might lead to regrets later on.

Then they go into a bunch of different ones, which we can talk about a little bit about. Yeah. 

Veronica: Um, And fear of future, future regret runs really, really, really deep. And I know this because I've spoken to so many people around the world. I've spoken to all the women in my program, It's Child Free For Me.

This is a huge topic that we discuss in my program because I've even had And this happened multiple times where I've asked someone what their fear of future regret is like, what does it look like? What is there? What are they fearing? And we're able to break down every single thing that they're fearing which is not necessarily Most likely not going to be true.

[00:13:00] You know how we know that 99 percent of what we fear and we worry about doesn't happen. Regardless of all of that, right? You can lay it down for someone. You can explain it to them. You can support them through it. But that fear of future regret runs so deep that it's Extremely hard to get rid of right just by having logic and explaining something logically doesn't necessarily take someone out of that fear.

So it's up to them to work through it to figure out like why am I so scared of what may happen in the future. So 

Rick: let me ask you this. So you said that when you were younger that you had this issue of fear of regret about Not having children. So my question is, did you knew that you didn't want to have kids?

Correct. Right. But you still had fear you would regret [00:14:00] it. I get that. Right. And can you explain, for those who may feel this way now, who are listening or watching, can you explain exactly what, what that meant? Like how, what did that feel like and why did, were you fearing that? Yes. Even though you knew you didn't want it.

Does that make sense? It's almost like contradictory. Yes. 

Veronica: It does make sense. And the reason was because my fear was so strong. It's, um, centered around conditioning pronatalism, what I had been taught, what people were telling me. So, when you have someone telling you, not, I'm going to say someone, but whoever you bump into, whoever knows you, friends, family members, strangers, um, telling you, you are absolutely going to regret this when you're older.

And you hear it so much and so often it seeps into your head. It's like anything else, right? It's it's [00:15:00] so it's when someone experiences Abuse like from a narcissist or something and they're like really chipping away at you're being crazy. You're acting They're gaslighting you and you start to believe That you you're you're less than that.

Okay, maybe your opinions don't matter So that is what starts happening in the brain You're just exposed to so much messaging that you're going to regret this that this is the biggest mistake you ever make in your life That you're going to look back on this and be so ashamed that you didn't go through this You're missing out on the greatest joy of life.

You're missing out on all these things like It just becomes so overwhelming that you can't escape it from seeping into your brain and then you start processing it and then you, those thoughts that you've heard from other people become your own. 

Rick: And why do you think that is specific to this thing about having kids as opposed to, you're going to regret if you never go to Bali, you're going to regret if you never do this, it always [00:16:00] seems to be about kids and I get that.

Yeah. You know, one person's experience, they, if it's bringing them joy, that they feel that other people should experience that joy, therefore they're projecting on you, which is wrong. But what do you think it is about this one thing where, um, People want, people want to be so, so are so adamant about convincing you that if you don't do this, you are really going to be making a big mistake and you're going to regret it.

That just seems to be so heavy and it doesn't seem to have led up much even with everything that's been going on with the child free movement and being more vocal about this space. 

Veronica: And it depends also on obviously the people, the person, whoever's telling you this or wherever you're hearing it from.

But when people truly believe in their hearts, that this is, you are meant to be on this planet to procreate, they are relentless, relentless in their pursuit [00:17:00] of making you change your mind and so that you have a baby. So it's that level of. You are so wrong and just being told over and over and then there's also the people that tell you that that aren't even truly in that belief system that you were born to procreate, but they're so it's such a systemic belief that they even join in and say, like, when are you having?

How are you? How are you not having a kid like that? It's just crazy talk. You're not thinking straight. You're going to regret it. So almost everybody is under this. This brainwashing, uh, idea, brainwashed idea of like, we must all do this. So therefore, we're going to try really hard for you to make sure that you do this, no matter what it 

Rick: takes.

So in your opinion, do you think for some and not everyone, it's more of a fundamental incentive to project this type of. You know, as [00:18:00] opposed to I'm looking for your best interest that if you have a kid, you're gonna be a happier human being. It's more fundamental than personal. 

Veronica: It's completely a blanket and the proof is there, right?

Because... If the idea is to just procreate and have kids, then those same people that are telling me to do it are also telling, are also happy with the idea that perhaps an 18 year old or a 19 year old that has no financial backing, that it's not set up to be a parent, that it's not in good emotional or perhaps physical health and maybe their partner has left already.

Like there's, there's no separation from What type of parent are you going to be? Because if there was, that would be different, right? If people came to be like, well, you're, you know, when I was in my 30s, like you're a professional, you have a career, you're established, like all these are the reasons. That you should be a mom, right?

[00:19:00] Would sort of say, okay, at least you can see like the responsibility level but when you're, when a person is just advocating for everyone to have kids no matter who they are, even if it's someone who clearly is not ready for parenthood, then you see it's just blanket. Right. I believe that everyone should have kids no matter what.

And then you get 

Rick: into the quote unquote, you'll just figure it out for those who are not. 

Veronica: You'll just figure it out. And the reason why it gets so complicated is that this fear of future regret is extremely emotional. So like I said before, I can. Justify. I can analyze. I can, um, just lay it all out for someone and they still can't see the story that they have created in your head because that's what it is.

You create the story in your head because as this information coming is coming in, well, All my friends are doing it. My siblings are doing it. I'm gonna you know, people are telling you're gonna end up alone You're never gonna be able to hang out [00:20:00] with us again We don't we're not going to be able to relate and what we speak with so all these things are going on around you And there's random strangers and and also people that you know telling you you're going to regret it So in your mind you start to build a story of you You know 20 30 40 years from now and With all the fears that have been planted in your head, you're going to end up alone.

You're going to look back at life and wish you had kids. You're going to do this. You're going to that. So it may not really be coming internally from what I feel or what I think, but it's almost impossible to block that out. And quieting the noise is also a big part of my program because it's once you really realize how inundated you are with this pronatalist messaging is When you can at least start peeling the layers and start looking for in the middle of the onion is what we truly want, right?

Just like we have to do with everything else in life. Like when we have to come to a conclusion by ourselves, like [00:21:00] you need to peel that onion, like take away what so and so things take away what so and so says, take away how they feel about this and then you have to find the core center. It's like. Okay, how do I feel about this?

So all this fear of regret is on the outside of the onion because you're starting to make up all these stories. Yeah. And it's 

Rick: tough too, when you're younger and you're much, some people are more influenced, right. And because you're just figuring out life and then you have all these people telling you to do this thing and you know, and then on top of it, they're telling you all the repercussions if you don't do this thing, that, you know, it's going to be a bad life for you.

Right. And it's really unhealthy. Yes. Right? I mean, this is very unhealthy. Yeah. It's horrible. Any other subject or topic, people would go about this in a different way. Yes. You know, but it seems like it goes right for the jugular. Mm hmm. You're going to be unhappy if you don't have children. Mm hmm. And regardless of where you are in life, [00:22:00] externally, internally, all that stuff, this is a, this is a fact.

And it's, it's unfortunate. Right. You know, I would say, yeah, you know, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say, you know what, kids aren't for you. I hear, I see what you're going through and I understand that you won't have kids. However, gotta credit my mom. I think your mom too at this point. Well, no, I won't speak for you.

But my mom did say that she understands why I chose not to have kids, but it took me a long time to get there with her. Yes. And, um, I don't think she never pressured me, to be clear, but she definitely understands why. I chose this path, but it took a long way to get there a long time to get there for me and for her to understand it.

But yeah, it's toxic, right? I mean, I would say this is a real toxic problem. It is. 

Veronica: And the reason that it's toxic is getting back to what we were talking about in the beginning is that you are feeling stuck, right? Because you're, you're unable to make this life altering [00:23:00] decision, right? And you can't move forward with your life because Fear future regret because you're you can't say unless of course you're someone who was You know knew from very early on that they didn't want kids never thought about it again and actually see kids as such a In, in a, in a negative light that it would affect them so negatively so they don't even care when people are telling them, like, you're going to regret this.

So, you know, definitely not talking about those people, but there are people even who didn't have to go through the whole process that I went through and the women in my program are going through that there's still a hint of hopefully I made the right decision. It does, it will pop up every now and then of.

What if things look different in the future? What if, what do I do if my, if you have a partner, what I do with my partner is no longer [00:24:00] there. And, you know, you start to think about all the things. 

Rick: Yeah. I think, and it brings up what I self realized, which is there's a big difference between. Oh my God, what I regret, am I gonna regret not having kids?

Mm-Hmm. to being curious about what your life would've looked like if you did have them. Yes. I think that that is very different. Yeah. And I think it's an important thing, and I feel like that would be like the very first step as far as approaching people that you know, like you said before. There are people that are born, they know what they want, and they go for it.

That could be kids, that could be the latest Macbook computer, whatever it is. They want it, they're going to take it, they're going to do it. And then there's people that are leaning like, I'm not sure if I need this, I'm not sure if I want this. And that's where the gray zone gets confusing, which you talk about a lot in your program.

Yeah, and 

Veronica: it's not so much that I'm not sure, it's what I have found to be the reality. It's more that I want to be child free, but there's just a million things holding me back. And By the way, none of those many things [00:25:00] have to do with me, right? Those, I, I have internalized it and now it's in my head, but the root was never in my head to begin with.

So yeah. 

Rick: Yeah. But getting back to the point about being curious, there's nothing wrong with that. You know, if I could say, Oh wow, you know, I do wonder what it would be like if I had another human being here with me and I had to, you know. Take care of them, or if I went to do things, what would that life be like?

That's totally healthy. People shouldn't confuse that with, Oh, I'm regretting not having kids. 

Veronica: Yes, exactly. And the thing is that people will point it out to you. So if you say. For example, it's happened to me, I've looked at a baby or a child or a toddler. I happen to like kids. You happen to like kids. And I'm just like, Oh my God, so cute.

You know? And I'm just like, I can't get my, stop looking at them cause they're just look adorable. And then whoever I'm with will be like. You know, does this mean you still want one? You [00:26:00] know, like it, it's just, it's just so interesting how that happens. Right. And it's like, no, I can have that moment. Like you just said, I can have that moment.

I can wonder we've talked to our community about, you know, it's, it's very healthy to think about what it is. Our baby would look like, right? Like you and I have talked about it. Like, would it be like a little Latin dancer that, you know, doesn't shut up, or would it be like a non dancer, very tall, you know, green eyed, you know, introvert.

So we talk about that all the time. It's just kind of fun to think about it. Imagine, but like, to your point. It's completely normal and it's okay. And it doesn't mean that we have regret on our minds. It just means it's just a fun conversation to have. Right. And by the way, we're completely guessing. We don't know.

Uh, you know, just like what people say, YouTube would have beautiful children. Nobody knows. Right. That's just like, it's a nice gesture [00:27:00] that people say, but. Things like that even get into someone's head of, Oh, maybe our child would be beautiful. So perhaps we should have one, you know, and then it just starts to spiral in your head and starts to be really 

Rick: confusing.

So why do you think that is? Why do you think being curious about something? Can turn so quickly into, oh, am I regretting something around this specific thing, you know, because I feel like you can be curious about a lot of things, but you don't regret it, or you don't, it's not interpreted as regret as much.

Veronica: Right. Um. I don't think it's related to regret like just thinking about like having those thoughts. I think if anything those um I think those type of of comments just start to get like the engine revving right of like Oh, maybe our kid would be cute or I wonder because i've heard this from a lot of women, um [00:28:00] That I've talked to saying like, Oh, I just, you know, I see my partner being so good with my dog and I know that that would make him a good dad and that he would, you know, be amazing and am I taking that away from him or so these little comments like just start to like rev the engine up of doubt, right?

And then it just like, Starts and starts and starts and starts. Yeah. So it's about like managing 

Rick: that. Yeah. And it's compounded with also that this is the biggest decision you're going to make. Yeah, exactly. You know that I'm going to say it again. Like this is the biggest decision you're going to make.

There's no argument, argument, you know? I mean, it really is. And. I'd be, if you have an argument of a bigger decision in your life, leave it in the comments. I'm actually really curious because I've been searching for it. And that's one reason why we're both so passionate about like, there should be more dialogue around the biggest decision someone will make in their life, whichever decision you would make.

Right. Right. And it's very clear [00:29:00] that to what you were saying earlier. That it's laid out what it looks like to have a child, but it's very black and white what it looks like to not have a child. And that's what all these child free accounts and what we're doing and a lot of people are doing is to shine a light on that specific lifestyle says it's going to be okay.

Right. I keep bringing that up because I think that is at the core of me personally on why I'm so involved with the child free connection and why I think it's so important to have these conversations. Yeah, of course. Of course. Yeah, we're changing something that needs to be changed in my 

Veronica: and a lot of regret a lot of fear a future regret comes From the fact of the unknown, right?

There you go. So if you don't know something, it's scary, right? You get a new job You're starting on Monday and you're just have all sorts of anxiety because you have no idea what you're walking into You're making a speech. It happens to me. I get really nervous every time because I have no idea what I'm walking into.

What is the audience going to be like? It's going to be received. It's going to be well received, [00:30:00] all the things. So it starts to just put in your mind the romanticized version of parenting, right? Because everything we're hearing is Positives, right? Your kids would be so cute. You would make such great parents.

You would be such a good mom. What if, um, you're not gonna be able to hang out with your friends anymore? Like, all this is highlighting and romanticizing the idea of parenting while bringing down the idea of Being child free. So that's another thing. The romanticism behind it is another thing that gets into people's brains.

And it's like, Oh my God, I'm going to miss out on all these beautiful moments. 

Rick: Yeah, I always say that, you know, I feel like equally you can talk about the good moments, but they should also be talking about. So I'm not talking about one person, but I'm just saying, yeah, I think it's a combination of like the good and the bad when you're weighing the biggest decision in your life, you look at both sides and unfortunately, [00:31:00] there's not enough.

Oh, this is what comes with being a parent. You know, it's very rare. You can find a lot of dialogue around whether it's a conversation or a book or, you know, podcasts like, Hey. By the way, if you're going to become a parent, I'm going to give you all the red flags, you know, and all the unpredictabilities that come with it.

So be prepared. And I think. You look at it a little differently, right, to your point and what you said using your word romanticizing this life choice of having children is not usually how it turns out, you know, it can turn out and again, there's going to be good moments and bad moments and I'm saying it's going to be doom and gloom either way, but like, You know, it's just interesting 

Veronica: and it's it's it's funny that you're calling them red flags, but it's uh It's red definitely red flags to you, but it's really reality It's the reality of parenting which as child free people to us.

It's like these giant red flags Because we're just like not relating to that idea at all, right? Um, but it really [00:32:00] just is like their day to day reality, right? um, I just had a conversation with someone yesterday who was You know said all these things and then at the end about, you know, she's confused about what to do, but it's definitely You know 90 percent child free, but of course she has all the i'm gonna miss out i'm gonna miss out I'm gonna miss out and then she even brought to the fact of like, although i'm aware Because i've seen it with my sister.

I've seen it with my friends of What it entails and whenever I'm at either of their houses, I'm like, you know, not for me So even knowing that feeling that seeing it you're still Romanticizing it because you've been so conditioned to believe a certain thing So it's really really interesting how that happens too bad You 

Rick: can't have like a trial run as a parent just to really like for a week That 

Veronica: would take away the idea of parenting right like I mean because Because what if we got good kids and they were well behaved?

Rick: No, no, [00:33:00] no. A structured trial run where you get an equal amount of the good and the bad. You know what I mean? As far as, I'm just making this up by the way. I'm not saying this is a secret plan. No, no, no. I know, I know. But I'm just, it would be interesting, right? If I could take a week of like, Hey, we're gonna We're going to, this is a structured class, a structured, you know, um, moment you're going to have in a week where you're going to get, you know, what, all the aspects.

That come with a healthy child, let's say, because there, unfortunately, are situations where your child is unhealthy and we won't go down that road, but, you know, traditionally, quote unquote, this is what life will feel like as a parent, and we're going to give you the good and the bad. You're gonna have good moments and you're gonna have bad moments.

Now, I know that if there are any parents out there listening, they're probably like, well, it's not your DNA and who you are. We 

Veronica: don't care about the parents. Don't listening and want, don't. No, I know. No, but I'm just saying. Yeah. I mean, it could help. I know that people go into it having no idea, which is very confusing.

We talked about in our community [00:34:00] about how, um, people. You know, have friends who have kids and then the friends will say to them, like, I'm just so shocked at how hard this is and, and, um, for us, it's, of course, you want your friend to be happy and you empathize and all the things, but at the same time, having someone say, I didn't realize how hard this was going to be is like really mind blowing to us because we've We're so aware of how hard that is.

And that's part of the reason why we haven't chosen it. Right. So it gets confusing as to how did you not know it was going to be really, really hard, especially considering your situation, which is ABCD, right? You're both out of work. Um, you're both, you know, one of you is sick or whatever the, the, the details are, but it's really interesting to hear that too.

Like, I didn't know how hard it was going to be. We're, we're like, Always focusing on on that and how that's going [00:35:00] to affect our lives and all and all the things but Go ahead. I was just 

Rick: gonna say I just wanted to add real quick I do have one friend you won't you know who who he is Who actually and he's kind of he's funny and he's got a good sense of humor.

He's a little sarcastic but um That several times that, you know, he knows about what we do and everything, and the several times I brought it up, he was just like, you made the right decision. Being a parent sucks. Now, he's half joking, but he's not really. Like, he, he, he, he tells me all the time. He's like, this, you, you, you, you did the right thing.

Congratulations, because this. This lifestyle is horrible for me, right? And he loves his kids and all that stuff. But, you know, it's just interesting. Cause I always think about you, do you know what I'm talking about? 

Veronica: Yeah, of course. And it's just the idea of someone not really evaluating is this for me, right?

Which wasn't available, which is what we're trying to do with the community. What I'm trying to do with my program. Like, let's just think. this through in a way that like, do it if [00:36:00] having a kid makes you happy, please do that. But if you're really leaning towards a child free life, but you just have fears around what it could be because you're starting to build stories in your head from what people are telling you, and you're very unclear on how this Could possibly lead to happiness and joy and fulfillment.

That's what we're here for. Um, that's what we're trying to share. That's what we're trying to teach. And that's what we talk about, but I do want to, um, Oh, actually before I go into that, I also wanted to go in for your future. Regret also highlights. What you're going to miss, right? Supposedly miss from, from having kids.

So it completely, like we talked about before, like you're gonna regret not seeing them grow up, not look into your eyes and say I love you and like all these romanticized versions of parenthood. But what happens is, is that it does not focus on the gain when you When you, when you are ruminating [00:37:00] on fear of future regret, you're completely dismissing the gains that you will have as a child free person.

And those gains, I mean, as far as I've seen, 100 percent of the time outweigh what you might miss in this romanticized version of parenthood. Uh, you know, I'm talking about people I've spoken to and I can tell that they are either child free or very close to being child free, you know what I mean? It's 

Rick: very interesting.

I never thought of that. And I personally only saw the gates, you know, and I can just speak for myself. It was interesting because I was always thinking about, oh, I'm going to have to like, Put all this stuff to the side when I have kids, when I contemplated it, when I was going through my process and that I always saw the stuff that I'm going to miss out on by having children, not all the stuff that I'm going to get, but I mean, that's just me.

And that shows you how certain I was about what I wanted in life. And here I am being, Oh, here I am being quote [00:38:00] unquote selfish. Um, 

Veronica: no, that's great. And I think. People feel like you absolutely, but I think that this when we're talking about fear or future regret the mindset is loss I know 

Rick: that's what I'm saying.

I think it's very very insightful in a lot of ways because I never looked at it that way Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but naturally I saw Yeah, you know, I'm just gonna have to pull over and get rid of all the fun stuff. So talk a little bit about that more. I think that's really important. Yeah, I mean, I, 

Veronica: I think it's, and that's why people get so confused and it gets so cloudy and, and, and, and you start to really doubt yourself because at the end of the day, this is all about trust, right?

So it's, who do you trust? Do you trust Do you know how to trust yourself? Cause that sometimes we don't, right? Do you know how to trust your inner voice? What your most deepest, um, longings and desires, like what really makes you happy? Do you trust that? 

Rick: And it's okay, by the way, I'll just add if you don't, because that's [00:39:00] a process and I didn't trust myself for a long time.

So it's part of it. 

Veronica: So, but that's what I do in the program too, because not being able to trust yourself and not being able to. to even know how to start trusting yourself? Like how, what, how do I even do that? Right? Like someone who might be like, how do I even trust myself? Like you just said, like, if you don't know, you don't know.

Rick: And to that point, I think it's a really poor time to make a big life altering decision when you're not sure if you trust yourself. You just got to be really transparent. Check the ego, look yourself in the mirror, and just ask yourself that question. And then just hit the pause button. You still might end up having kids, you might not, but at least you are just, let me just figure out this part first, but let's say 

Veronica: someone does.

And you're not really hitting the pause button. I just want to clarify, like, when, you know, in my program, we're actually Um, we're hitting the pause button, not as far as like, I'll deal with this later, but as far as like, let me get into this now. Right. Because if I don't [00:40:00] understand this, um, 

Rick: decision, let me figure some stuff out before I make any decisions in life.

Right. Just like if you're buying a house, you're going to look at your bank account. You're going to trust the fact that you're going to be able to pay for your mortgage. You're going to be able to, you want the play, you know, you're 

Veronica: going to go through a thing, but people still don't do that. Right. Right.

People still buy homes and don't think how we think it through, right? We break everything down. To every possible scenario so that we can make a right decision, right? that just 

Rick: defined the 2008 housing crisis, but yeah, I hear what you're saying. Right, 

Veronica: so it's, it is important to break it down and figure things out before you make these big life decisions, but Also, like even with the housing crisis or even with us, like buying property, like everybody has their own opinion.

I mean, how many people have said you have to own a house, like, especially because we're older growing up. That was part of the dream, right? That's part of that's part of the dream, the check off with like kids, the house and. You know, all of a [00:41:00] sudden now people are like, don't buy a house. I mean, not don't buy.

Obviously the market is crappy right now in the industry. It's ridiculous. So, um, definitely not the best time to buy a house, but I'm talking about as a mind shift of, it's not a checkbox that you need to do by the time you're 27, right? Because it's just not realistic anymore. There's a 

Rick: list of, okay. So let me just ask you this.

So let's some, let's say someone is very. you know, has a lot of trust in themselves and their decision and they've peeled away the metaphor used earlier, the onion, those layers, um, and they're at their core, but they're still confused because that is a factor too. And what do you do then? 

Veronica: Well, do you mean confused in general or confused about, are you bringing regret into it?

Or you're just saying they're so confused about their choice to have. They're still 

Rick: feeling fear of regret. After they've been through the process of really getting to know themselves. 

Veronica: Right. Right. I mean, there's so many [00:42:00] steps. That's what poor is 

Rick: for. Yeah. I don't wanna jump ahead. I know that's what my poor is for.

No, I wanna jump ahead, but I'm curious myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, if you're more centered. Yeah. But you still have this fear of regret. 

Veronica: There are so many more steps that you can take because you need to evaluate. Okay, let me peel away the, these layers, but peeling away these layers, like you're acting like, okay, now I've peeled away the layers.

What? But those are like very important steps, the peeling of the onion. So you're not really like, okay, now I'm there. What? Right. The journey and the process is getting there. So it's not that simple. So the idea is once you're there. This future fear of regret starts to fizzle out because the layers are showing you how this story that you're inventing in your head about this future regret is not really a story that's true.

Rick: Wow, I feel like I'm getting schooled by you today. This is good stuff. Okay, that makes a [00:43:00] lot of sense. 

Veronica: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not just like, okay, what now? It doesn't happen. Okay. Yeah. Um, so, okay. So you want to trust yourself. And also like you want to trust yourself now in the present. And if you really trust yourself, you're also going to trust future you, right?

Because let's say I have future, um, fear of regret in the future. That's saying to myself, okay, I don't trust. I feel like that future me is going to look down back at at present me and it's going to be like She was the worst She didn't know how to make a decision She was you know, and just like belittling me and making me It's like less than and putting a lot of shame on who I am now, where you don't, it doesn't need to work that way, right?

Our goal is for it not to be that way. Our goal is to trust ourselves now [00:44:00] and trust that our future self will look back at any choice we make in our lives and say, thank God, no, 

Rick: sorry, I broke your stride there. Oh, that's what I would have said, 

Veronica: and I know that there's a lot of people listening that feel the same way as you, but the goal in, and this again, I don't mean by like choosing or not choosing child free, but you want to like, look back at yourself and say, and I tell you this all the time too, because you tend to fall a little bit into the regret trap.

Um, and it's, Okay. It's, it's about saying like, okay, at the time I trusted myself and my choices. So that was obviously, I made the right choice for myself at that time. So there is like a sense of love and compassion to look. back at yourself when there's [00:45:00] trust, 

Rick: right? I'd love to add on to that. I think, you know, there's some value in looking at your past as well and the decisions you've made in your past and sitting in that seat of comfort, knowing like, okay, up until this moment of now, I have.

I've made a series of decisions. They all haven't been perfect. Some of them have been right. Some of them have been wrong. But I've learned from them and I've grown. But I'm always moving forward, up and to the right, you know? And I think having that trust in yourself, and that really gave me a lot of trust, is like, and it made me feel a little calmer about the decision making, day to day decision makings that I'm doing, or big life decision making, is that I can sit in that seat of comfort like, I'm okay.

I'm okay now, which means that I've been making these decisions the right way. 

Veronica: Yeah, right. That's a great point. That's a great point. Evaluating other decisions that you have made. How has that felt? And also, you can evaluate a past decision that you've made based on what other people think or other people's opinion, and you can evaluate how [00:46:00] has that gone for you, 

Rick: right?

It's always, 99 percent of the 

Veronica: time has gone poorly. Yeah, exactly. So there's a lot of layers to the trust pie for sure. And, um, Yeah, and I think that trust is a really, really big part of stepping away from that fear. But there are so many layers, but it's completely doable. Um, you know, quieting the noise, as we said, is just so, so important.

Trusting yourself, getting through those layers, and realize that this story that you're making up in your head of what could be in the future, is so important. Based, probably not based on what you truly want, what you truly believe and what's truly going to make you happy in your 

Rick: life. Yeah, just a little anecdote.

I mean, talking about being influenced by others. Yes. I just remember trying to rock a bandana in the mid 90s because someone told me that I should do that. And it was like, I look back and it was a horrible mistake. It was not good look for me. I'm not even joking. Like I was like really bad. So that's just [00:47:00] a perfect example.

I mean, it just popped in my head, like specifically because the person was putting so much pressure. You got to wear the bandana. And I'm like, yeah. And I started wearing it to classes and all this stuff. And I look back and I just another one. I spent a half a semester not wearing shoes, walking around barefoot.

Where? In school? Because a bunch of my friends were doing it because they were hippies and they were smoking weed and they were like And then I just, now I look at it and I'm not the kind of guy that walks around barefoot, like on campus. I never told you that. 

Veronica: In college or high school? In college. Oh, in college, you said high school.

Yeah, in 

Rick: college. Yeah, not wearing shoes in college, in classes. I have friends that still make fun of me. Again, something I was influenced, bad decision. So this is what I'm saying, like, I'm not even joking, like really stack up those things that you've done. We've all been guilty of making decisions based off of influence, whether that's a friend or a celebrity or whatever.

And really ask yourself. Yeah. Is that for me? I mean, 

Veronica: yeah. Those of you watching on YouTube, we'd love to hear these [00:48:00] bad decisions that we've made. I'm sure I have some, none are popping up at the moment, but yeah, those are the best. Those high school, college decisions where people, everybody else was doing it and you're like, yeah, I do it too.

Like that's how, you know, I'm cool too. But, uh, yeah, anyway, this is a little deeper, but I love that example because it does apply as far as looking back and seeing. The outcome of when someone influences us as opposed to when we just listen to ourselves and do what we want and what we think is good.

Rick: Yeah, magnify that times a thousand with having a kid, or a million, or maybe a billion. 

Veronica: And just to end it off, I like to say that all this, I think culminates into be so, so careful with who you listen to, right? Take that source and, uh, and, and really evaluate who this person is. And this goes all across the board, not just who you know and that you talk to personally, [00:49:00] or that you've met a coworker or a friend or a family member, but what you read.

Um, and what you, for example, like I've seen so many articles on I. Was child free, but now I'm not. I have a baby and I'm the happiest ever, right? Something like that. So that title alone confuses people and it's already like seeping into their brain. But if you really look into those people's stories and you really dive in, First of all, you're not child free and then have a kid like you were either child free or you're a parent, right?

It's a completely different story. So it's just about like listening to the resources. I had read this article I think it was about a year ago and I can't remember it but the person really went in on You know how happy she is that she made the choice and that her baby's everything and now she's finally learned joy and love and the whole thing and then I clicked on her name and I did all this research on her and she's Um, extremely comes from like an extremely faith based [00:50:00] community and as part of this faith, faith based, um, uh, organization.

So it's, there's just different things about people talking to us, like, just be careful of. what you're reading, what you're seeing, who you're listening to, because ultimately their stories, their belief systems, their idea of what you should and shouldn't do is completely different. So that just, that just adds to the layer of confusion.


Rick: And not just listening to, but who you surround yourself with, you know, that's one of the biggest things I've learned is you want to surround yourself with not only like minded people, but, you know, You just got to be careful because some people are very convincing and if you're, if you have some insecurity and you're, if you're confused and lost, you will make a decision that is wrong.

And if it's life altering, it's a real problem. Because you can't, you can't unring that bell, so to speak, when it [00:51:00] comes to having a child. Right. 

Veronica: Exactly. So, um, yeah, I agree with you. I think who you surround yourself with, by the way, join our membership community. That's definitely a scene of like minded people.

Yes. And, um, yeah, we absolutely love it in there. We're having a good time. And, um, It's expanding all the time and uh, yeah, definitely check that out. The child free has all the information. 

Rick: Yep. Well this has been a great conversation. Yes, you too. And I learned a lot. Like I said, like thank you.

You schooled me today, . Are we gonna go to the pool and I we will go to the pool, . We're gonna head to the pool. Alright. We'll see Allall next time. All right. Bye. Bye.